April 15th, 2007 | Categories: Anime | Tags: , ,

Props to Impz and his band of merry men for sparking off the discussion. Demian in his response, however, overlooked what I believe is a key angle of how anime wouldn’t make it to mainstream, and that’s what I’m going to address in this post. Will also be commenting closely on drmchsr0’s, uh, “character-driven” response that, while being theoretically valid, has critical flaws in terms of practical implementation.

I agree with Demian that anime will never make it to mainstream, but for different reasons altogether — the medium itself is what makes it an inherent impossiblity. I don’t know how many of you might have experienced this, but I personally have difficulty getting my friends to watch anime, even after I tell them that the DVD of Honey and Clover does not contain porn.

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“You’re doing it wrong!”

The problem with the assumption that anime will become mainstream is this: that they will eventually have the accessibility (in terms of viewer engagement and availability) and comfort that television series have. Let’s face it — we’re essentially watching what the world at large perceives as cartoons from Japan, with an average viewing time that’s half, even a quarter of your average cartoon series. To break it down a little, what I mean by that is the reason behind the success of anime like Naruto, for example, is due to the fact that it shares core characteristics with the successful television dramas and sitcoms out there.

Because I can’t, and don’t want to go into a rundown of worldwide media consumption habits, let’s take American television as an example. The Sopranos is currently in its sixth and final run; Nip/Tuck in its fourth season; Lost in its third, with a fourth already scheduled. Then we have Seinfield, which spanned a massive nine seasons, and Friends a gigantic ten. What does this all point to? Aside from accessibility and comfort, we also have quantity. Allow me to elaborate on each of them in turn.

For sitcoms like Seinfield and Friends, the pull factor came mainly from how easy it was to watch a single episode even if you weren’t a faithful viewer — there is no meta-narrative that binds the series together as a whole; neither is there a need for the casual viewer to be aware of what happened previously in order for them to “get it” and enjoy the current episode. In other words, accessibility, which means more viewers tuning in as time goes on, as opposed to a fixed set of loyal viewers who’ve been there since season one.

On the other hand, what dramas like Nip/Tuck, The Sopranos, and Lost might lack in terms of accessibility, they make up for in terms of comfort. As I mentioned earlier, comfort is a pull factor, discounting other basic requirements like good script-writing, an interesting plot, and decent character development. Why comfort? While a sitcom is usually marketed as casual viewing for the man on the street, a drama would be the opposite — a long-term investment in the makers of the series, where the viewer invests their time in watching the show and, in the long-term, is subsequently rewarded with a quality experience (e.g character and plot developments) that can only be derived from a work of such quantity.

And now we return to Naruto. If we accept the statement that Naruto is mainstream, we can now begin to correlate Naruto’s success with the viewing trends of the American market. Aside from a huge demographic which hits the sweet spot in terms of marketing, the reason for Naruto’s arguably phenomenal success (I heard they’re now selling ninja headbands in Wal-Mart?) would be due to the many characteristics it shares with American television habits. It has sustained, light humour and numerous, idiosyncratic side characters, which means it caters partly to the casual viewer; at the same time, however, the loyal viewer is not forgotten — the overarching plot and perpetual conflicts, in addition to development of the main characters, ensure that following the series is a rewarding experience.

Now look at anime through these goggles for a moment. The average anime series spans a meagre 26 episodes. Character development is usually present in every episode, and the story is concluded by the last with an air of finality that renders future seasons impossible to implement. Each episode doesn’t stand on its own — you’ll have to watch each and every one in sequence in order to understand the story fully. I know of two anime that break this mould — GITS:SAC and their “stand-alone” episodes, along with Haruhi’s intentional out-of-order sequencing that come to mind — but they’re in the minority to say the least.

This is why marketing anime out of Japan is a nightmare, and also why a lot of them haven’t been licensed, even aired out of Japan. Would the average teenager want to invest their time in what seems like an animated high-school love drama with supernatural elements thrown in if they knew that the story would end within 24 episodes, and one of the heroines die within eight? I’ve just described Kanon for you. Damn, how about trying to watch a couple of prepubescent girls in an almost all-female cast trying to save the world while they fire massive laser beams and beat the shit out of each other in revealing outfits? That’s what Nanoha sounds like, a psychedelic paedophile’s animated wet dream (for the first two seasons, anyway).

It’s pretty unfair, I can hear you say. The millions spent on a single season of a successful sitcom or drama way can’t be compared to the low production costs and profits that an anime produces? But that’s mainstream for you! I’m pretty well aware of my comparison — in fact, I deliberately chose to not compare them to cartoons for that reason alone. If you want your pipe dreams about anime being talked about as much as CSI to come true, that’s the reality they’ll have to face, sadly.

What about movies? Anime movies are a lot of shit. I’ll be honest here: each and every time someone brings up Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli when the topic turns to anime, it’s like taking a nail to chalkboard under my ears because they act as if that was all there is to anime, Akira and GITS notwithstanding. I don’t care how many awards they’ve won or their contributions to the anime industry — you can’t beat the character development, plot, pacing, and basically everything the 26-episode anime stands for. Anime movies pale in comparison, and fresh talent has been sorely lacking — even Makoto Shinkai seems to be in a sophomore slump the last time I checked. In other words, shit.

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this was my face when otakus were compared to Christians

drmchsr0, I found your analogy rather offensive since I happen to be a professing Christian, but that’s not what my argument’s about. While your rant had a lot of merit for clearly illustrating the current perception of otakus everywhere, you started swimming in rhetoric halfway and failed to bring up the other side of the coin, and that’s what I’m going to explain in this second part of the post.

The reason why I think your rant was overtly imbalanced is this — the values and norms that the anime community and its peripherals (i.e manga, doujinshi, visual novels, Touhou) create are centred around introverted behaviour. Let’s take anime at its most basic form of community interaction: people spend anywhere from four, to eight, maybe twice that amount watching an anime series. Then they go and talk about it on the internet — but the ratio of time spent watching an anime blatantly exceeds the time spent discussing about it. So let’s assume you’re passionate about Honey and Clover. And that you’ve spent more time discussing its merits, talking about the themes and symbolism, and indulging in intellectual wankery (like this post) than you have watching the entire first and second seasons combined.

What next? No one watches just one season of anime and leaves it at that — they go on and proceed to watching more anime. So the time spend alone watching anime increases, and that time spent forms a habit, becomes part of the nature of the otaku as it were, to feel comfortable in the presence of no one but themselves. This sounds like a strawman, but this leads on to my second point about, so bear with me. This is not totally representative of everyone who watches anime, of course, but it is undeniable that a lot of us indulge in this kind of behaviour — myself included.

The habits formed by the otaku, of seclusion and introverted behaviour, carry on into the real world, where community interaction comes in. Just look around at your average anime blog. Everyone has an opinion about an anime, and having read quite a number of anime blogs long before I started Cruel Angel Theses, I’ve noticed this trend — everyone’s entitled to their opinion, no matter how irrational or inadequately justified their opinion might be. Lucky Star would be a good example, to beat a dead horse.

This isn’t a question on the rights of everyone to have an opinion, but a question of what it means to have an opinion — so, drmchsr0, you’re asking otakus everywhere to not be anti-social? That’s going against the innate nature I’ve seen everywhere, and in the anime blogosphere — apparently the time spent watching something entitles you to be an ass with your opinion about it, since it’s your time that was spent watching what you think is a “shit” series that was too “moe”. The terms “shit” and “moe” are replaceable with any other labels, like “dumb” and “shounen”, or “stupid” and “shoujo”.

In other words, opinions are that, just opinions. We are anti-social, as it were, for refusing to accept anyone’s opinions other than our own, and that in turn fosters no proper discussion on why someone hates a series, or loves it. Why do the haters hate Lucky Star? “Because it’s a moe anime”. Why do the fanboys love it? “Because the girls are so moe”. Same difference? This is where it resembles a circlejerk — everyone’s allowed their own opinion and no one’s allowed to question it, which results in the community becoming a farce. Watching an anime’s not all there is to it, at least for me — half the fun comes out of talking about it with other fans, getting to know their take on things, and how it is that they arrived at a love for the same thing that I do — not listening to a salivating freak shouting “MOE”, who also gets a boner from girls drawn to look underage.

I’m guessing this is the source of your “arrogant louts” that you mentioned at the end of your post, but do feel free to clarify if you had anything else you meant that I misinterpreted. In my opinion it all stems from the individualistic nature of the community to glorify their own opinions and scorn others without giving room for proper, civil discourse. Notice how this fits the nature of the *chans as anonymous discussion boards — those who have baseless, immature opinions are generally shot down and/or ignored, and proper discussion paid attention to (well, most of the time anyway…). The problem here with anime blogs and forums is that everyone’s a tripfag, and everyone wants their opinion to be heard without question. Pretty awful if you ask me, but that’s reality for you.

Can an otaku’s degree of normalcy be linked to how accepting they are of other people’s opinions? It sounds pretty absurd, I know, but that’s my hypothesis on the whole thing. Feel free to disagree but be sure to tell me why — it’d be damn ironic to have my theory proved in the first comment.

  1. April 16th, 2007 at 00:27
    Reply | Quote | #1

    Yes. We gotta show people we can at least interact, to some extent with people outside of our social circle(s). Every little bit helps. They see how we act, they form their own opinions, which in turn become perceptions, which are shared with others. Society is evil, but a necessary one.

    And as for that other comment? I think a lot differently from other people. Sometimes, it’s a curse rather than a gift.

    Also, yeah, I kinda got carried away with rhetoric. I think I apologized for that.

  2. April 16th, 2007 at 01:04
    Reply | Quote | #2

    I think that this is an issue that’s way, way too complex to simplify into a few reasons and solutions. I think your, Drm’s, Demian’s Impz’s and Lupus’ posts signify this, since you all seem to be coming at it from different angles. That’s good. :P

    I don’t think that anime driven by plot is why it doesn’t work here. Sure there’s a committment, but at the same time, people are committed to other things on TV, like March Madness, 24, or American Idol, for example, which have their own forms of plot (who will win the NCAAs? who will win American Idol? Will Jack Bauer save the day?). besides, plenty of anime have standalone episodes. Watch ARIA or Cowboy Bebop, for example. :P

    I just don’t feel that the linearity of anime is a problem for it. I just think it’s a lack of promotion, which ties into your argument about fans being introverted. But even then, just because we’re known for keeping to ourselves doesn’t mean that it has to be that way. I also think that what contributes to this is, from our limited interactions, that we believe that people who don’t get anime just won’t get it ever. That coupled with how society views us currently, and the ever-present fear of having some of the anime culture’s more negative aspects being thrust into the mainstream and eventually defining who we are (even though we aren’t) keeps the “more intellectual” fans, the ones that imo should be talking about why they love the anime (and not “fanboys”) from talking about their passion.

    Why is interaction such a bad thing? Because it’s not how things work? I don’t quite see it that way, obviously. :P

  3. April 16th, 2007 at 04:45
    Reply | Quote | #3

    I hardly think length is the overall decider of what is mainstream. It only really applies when trying to license a 100+ episode series instead of a 13 episode one. And I believe you ignore many series on television that already follow a thirteen episode season. Many shows on cable usually consist of thirteen episode seasons seperated by many months. They do have continuing seasons, but they don’t last the whole year. And no one can deny the success of limited series, like those found on HBO.

    As for whether a viewer will watch a show with a continuing plot or not, I believe that for the last few years TV has been moving into the realm of intricate plots and character developments, similar to anime. Look at Heroes, Lost, 24, and many more popular shows from recent seasons. The era of the situational sitcom is almost dead. People want substance in what they watch. It is the inherent medium of anime as animation and the percieved prejudices against it that stop it from entering the mainstream, though I still contend that whether anime enters the mainstream or not is hardly a worthwhile concern.

    I also believe your villifying the anime community too much in saying that no one listens to anyone’s opinion. This is true in some areas, mainly younger fans I find, but I have found most fans to be civil people open to different views. I have never seen anyone in the blogosphere who openly opposes someone else on base principal. Ultimately people have subjective reasons for liking or disliking anime, but I’ve seen them expressed in intelligent ways. It is the most vocal fans who are the most ignorant and intolerant that I think you are speaking of. This just comes back to the idea that other fans need to speak up. The question there is where to speak up to and how do we express our opinions so that they can be heard.

  4. April 16th, 2007 at 05:03
    Reply | Quote | #4

    yeah just another thing but whenever we get together (ei. conventions) we all dress up and end up looking like a bunch of crossdressers and pedophiles which isnt exactly a good thing…not to mention narutards come in hoards

  5. April 16th, 2007 at 07:34
    Reply | Quote | #5

    I think we’re talking across each other… and hopefully these comments are addressed to me. :P

    “I hardly think length is the overall decider of what is mainstream. ”
    I was talking about plot, not length, though I would agree with you on this point. I mean, we still have the Simpsons running still after many many years for example.

    “Many shows on cable usually consist of thirteen episode seasons separated by many months. They do have continuing seasons, but they dont last the whole year.”
    I know this too, but I’m not getting what you’re getting at here. Are you saying that anime does the opposite?

    “It is the inherent medium of anime as animation and the percieved prejudices against it that stop it from entering the mainstream, though I still contend that whether anime enters the mainstream or not is hardly a worthwhile concern.”
    As evidenced in here and in other posts, whether or not it’s a concern depends on the person. :3 I still think that it’s not a bad thing for it to become known in the mainstream, but it’s still unknown as to how anime can “bridge the gap”, so to speak. I guess I’m looking for more acceptance/tolerance of the medium here, to feel that it’s not strange to have an interest in anime. On the flip side, do we want to remain niche? Why?

    “I also believe your villifying the anime community too much in saying that no one listens to anyones opinion. ”
    You’re placing words in my mouth. I never said that. I was talking about how we as the anime culture as a whole tends to keep ourselves secluded from people who don’t know about anime. And I agree in saying that we need fans to speak up.

    “The question there is where to speak up to and how do we express our opinions so that they can be heard.”
    Agreed. :D

  6. April 16th, 2007 at 11:24
    Reply | Quote | #6

    drmchsr0: Whoops, my bad. If you apologized somewhere in that rant of yours I guess I overlooked it. And yes, I think you could call it a gift. (: I got inspired to write a long reply!

    thebign, Demian: Whoa, whoa! Hold on a second. Both of you have separate points that I’ll address together because I think there’s been a bit of confusion here. Let me rephrase what I said above if it wasn’t clear:

    Regarding plot, linearity, and length — that wasn’t what I was talking about when I brought up American television, actually. The reason I said that was because I believe that the characteristics that make up sitcoms/dramas (e.g comfort, accessibility) have moulded viewing habits across America, and habits form expectations, which then in turn decide the marketability of anime, which is what I was comparing it to.

    No one’s denying anime has intrinsic literary value, it’s just that when it goes over to the American market there’s a whole playing field that isn’t level (anime has to adapt to the viewing habits of Americans, who want comfort/accessibility and quantity like I mentioned) in which it has to compete if it wants to achieve mainstream success, which is why I think it will never do so.

    And your last point, Demian:
    >>but I have found most fans to be civil people open to different views. I have never seen anyone in the blogosphere who openly opposes someone else on base principal.

    That is correct. Note, however, that being civil to different views does not mean there is healthy discussion being promoted. Also, you’ve never seen anyone oppose someone else on base principle in terms of opinion — why is that? My theory is that the anime blogosphere has a chilling effect of its own that frowns upon people making criticisms on other people’s opinions. What usually happens when a blog post is made is that you almost always get comments of approval, never of dissent. If someone with differing taste comes along they never question the blogger’s construction of his or her opinion, rather, they side-step it and just bring up their case of why they think differently.

    I also need to head on to college and finish up my Sociology essay that’s due today (which I skipped in favour of writing this post, bleh), so if there’s anything I overlooked or anything else that still needs clarification, feel free to tell me in the comments. Thanks.

  7. <![CDATA[Karcy]]>
    April 16th, 2007 at 17:15
    Reply | Quote | #7

    Hi Owen!

    Now I’m going to sound like a real Granny here, but –

    Speaking as someone who dropped out of anime fandom once it hit the Noughties, Nineties-era anime fandom was filled with anime series that lasted several seasons on television, such as Slamdunk, Sailormoon, and Dragon Ball. They fared well in various mainstream markets internationally. Their target audience was children, and their selling point was a guaranteed audience every episode who would buy stuff sold during advertisement slots. Even more ’serious’ shows like Rurouni Kenshin, Fushigi Yuugi and Yuyu Hakusho relied on the same formula. The same could be said of Eighties era anime. Regardless of the maturity of their content, the anime market functioned on that formula.

    In between these shows, independent studios had the finances to experiment with more sexual and daring anime through the OVA — Original Video Animation, or Original Animation Video. This led to quite a big anime porn market. Of course, this also led to other forms of experimentation. Most of it existed in Japan, but a fair amount of the good stuff trickled into Western notice through imports.

    Then the Asian economic bubble burst of 1997 happened.

    After that, the Asian anime market fumbled. Studios began to produce series at the lowest possible cost with the highest possible profit. Market and trend analysts have been pulled in to analyse where the money was in. It wasn’t long before they figured that there was a large number of working young adults who would spend a fortune on collectible items. So the logic was that you could produce something that was very easily distributed and showed on television for a mediocre period of time — 13 to 26 episodes — without worrying too much about its lasting power, since you had another guaranteed means of income. In the meantime, you could get money from selling collectible items.

    At about this time anime studios began pandering to fetishization. After all, their customer base bought these collectibles for fetish and for novelty. That’s why you get a sudden explosion of Moe anime the past few years. The thing that most Noughties anime fans don’t realize (largely due to youth) is that these are NOT made by otaku acknowledging fellow otaku, anymore than shoujo manga about innocent girls surrounded by pretty boys are written by innocent girls themselves (no, they are written and drawn by grannies like me!). They are made by marketers who feed on the otaku stereotype and re-perpetuate it so that otaku can consume it. The team behind Neon Genesis Evangelion, Wings of Honnemaise and FLCL in GAINAX are all gone. The people behind GAINAX now are all people brought in after GAINAX continually faced financial problems because their ‘geniuses’ weren’t making money. How many other studios are really run by suits pretending to be ‘fellow otaku’?

    If you’re talking about mainstreaming, then that’s very simple — Naruto is one of the few anime that have been given the same marketing engine that was given to Sailormoon, Dragon Ball, Pokemon, Slamdunk, etc. They’re targetted at kids, but appeal to grown-ups and teenagers.

    In many ways, I miss these shows because despite their obvious catering to the mass market, they’re not as dodgy as the smaller titles in the market. The smaller titles go for a niche market. That in itself is not a problem at all, but it doesn’t mean that niche = creativity/art. In most cases the niche market has already been identified, and in most cases, the niche is masturbating teenage boys. Gives the Noughties a new meaning HOH HOH HOH *cough hack cough*

    Now, Granny is done with marketing ranting. Granny will now return to reading Chintsubu*.

    * Google! you will love this, Owen.

    ( Granny wants to know when we can meet up! Granny got car! )

  8. <![CDATA[Karcy]]>
    April 16th, 2007 at 17:21
    Reply | Quote | #8

    Incidentally, a friend of mine did real research on the anime market sometime back. That’s real stuff. Statistics. Sales. Mine is ten-year fangirl observation pulled out of granny ass.

  9. April 16th, 2007 at 17:41
    Reply | Quote | #9

    Karcy: Uh, are you sure you should be replying to this? The moe post was two posts before, I think. And I’m not sure what you’re trying to say because it doesn’t directly relate to my post, and I’m lazy to make the connection, feeling tired after college.

    Also get back to me after my A’s are over, like June or something. I don’t wanna go anywhere for the moment.

  10. April 16th, 2007 at 17:52

    Actually BigN my entire post was commenting on the article. I guess are points were so similar that it seemed like I was talking to you.

  11. April 16th, 2007 at 19:48

    Indeed. My mistake, though I think it did help flesh out my viewpoints. :P

  12. <![CDATA[Karcy]]>
    April 18th, 2007 at 14:26

    “The problem with the assumption that anime will become mainstream is this: that they will eventually have the accessibility (in terms of viewer engagement and availability) and comfort that television series have”

    Basically, what I’m saying is that you frame your argument:
    Anime content/structure is non-mainstream.
    Therefore anime content/structure is niche.

    What I’m saying is:
    People who produce anime decide to make it niche.
    Therefore people who produce anime make the content/structure non-mainstream.

    The niche market works for the anime industry. It doesn’t really have to expand beyond it to make money (although my question of how profits are distributed between toy companies, manga publishing companies, anime production companies and anime studios have never really been answered). It re-perpetuates the ‘geek’ appeal because it works. This is especially so when anime is carried over to the West and takes on the market system there; prior to the popularity of anime as a genre in the West, everyone in Southeast Asia just lumped them as ‘cartoons’.

    Let’s just talk about anime, ignoring Hollywood. A niche market doesn’t mean small. It can be a HUGE market. Hotlink has cashed in on it by organizing a gaming and anime convention recently. It is niche, but it is massive niche. So, if you decide to create a product to fit a niche market, you create it in a format that is guaranteed to create profits for you by appealing to the way that niche group works and thinks. You also re-perpetuate the exclusivity of the product to your niche target market.

    On the other hand, if there is a massive enough amount of people in the niche it eventually becomes ‘mainstream’, the way emo rock has been brought out of garages and on to huge stadiums. It is very possible. While playing a video game to completion and hitting secret endings are ‘niche’ activities, a sufficient amount of people buy video game consoles and play games in order for it to become a kind of ‘mainstream’ activity.

    So: I was objecting to your statement that content and structure drives anime to niche. My point is that niche is a pre-determined position for a product, and the content and structure is formulated to appeal to it.


    I think the argument here is that some people are interested in making anime ‘normal’, as normal as American Idol. Why in the *world* would anyone want that to happen? Anime’s sudden rise to reputation — and continual interest in it — is that it is niche. Numbers doesn’t exactly matter. It’s what pulls people to be part of it (Gwen Stefani, for an example) and it also alienates people from it at the same time. The same can be said of any subcultures.

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