Cruel Angel Theses

tl;dr plox

I think you got the wrong idea about Clannad. I agree with you in some points, I never was a fan of Kanon for the most part, simply because I never found the characters interesting. Air was better, well the game anyways, because it felt more “honest” but I can understand people not liking it. Clannad is very different from those though, if Kanon and Air are plot driven then Clannad is character driven. Clannad is first and foremost the story of Tomoya , him meeting people, realizing his selfworth and simply growing up. There’s no “plot” and the supernatural aspect of the game is very subdued and not in your face like Kanon or Air.
It’s funny you talk of Honey and Clover since Clannad reminded me of this when I played it, especialy Takemoto story is very similar to Tomoya. And for the 8minutes trailer, you’re probably talking of the trailer for the Movie so of course all the emo and story will be in your face, The game is 100 hours long after all.
I’ll said if you liked Honey and Clover and is willing to give Clannad a chance then you won’t regret it.

Concerning the lack of what you call “emotional honesty” in things like Kanon and Air: while, as you said, these things aren’t necessarily all about the sexual content, they are still targeting the adolescent to young adult male audience. There is more to appealing to this audience than just the ero content; a large part of it is also what has in the past been called “emotional porn” (think megatokyo after it stopped being good), which often involves such exaggerated and over-the-top emotions that they prevent the level of true connection with the characters achieved in shows like H&C. In a sense, it’s still over-idealization, just at the more tragic/emo end of the spectrum rather than the innocent “Belldandy” end.

All popular entertainment emphasizes wish-fulfillment and emotional impact, as opposed to emotional complexity or realism. However, I don’t think that necessarily makes it inferior to “serious” drama. Kanon and AIR are not as satisfying as Honey & Clover, but they are still satisfying in their ways. The supernatural elements are not just crutches, they tap a certain area of sentiment/emotion that more “realistic” (and sometimes pedestrian) shows do not. And sexual feelings do not have to be expressed physically to be effective in fiction.

You do not mention NANA, which is Yazawa Ai’s main work and is as emotionally complex and realistic as Honey & Clover, with the addition of stronger and more vivid passions. It is all very well to evolve a work by character rather than plot, but that also runs the danger of seeing the plot wander off into tedious byways, as Honey & Clover eventually did.

I’m not saying I prefer NANA, just that it has things that Honey & Clover lacks — as well as vice-versa. And I certainly don’t prefer Kanon to either, but it is not a negligible show.

You misunderstand- I definitely did not intend to suggest that at all, merely explain why they are that way– wish fulfillment and fan-pandering are precisely what it is. They’re trying to imply that we in the target demographic really are that shallow, perhaps; they try to spoon-feed the viewers rather than engage them.

When I was comparing Takemoto to Tomoya it was for the growing up part, in term of personnality they’re very different. But if Morita works so well in HC, it’s because Takemoto is here to counterbalance him. I don’t think a show with awesome and grown characters from the begining would work well, maybe in shonen but not in a drama/slice of life.
Honestly Clannad is a game that touched me in a way no other anime, manga or visual novel has, simply because the situations were all terribly realistic and involving.

While I agree that Kanon and AIR would be more plot driven compared to Honey & Clover, I think I might consider it an inherent flaw in the visual novel system in comparison to a traditional novel. Visual novels are meant to be relatively interactive in comparison, which oftentimes requires more focus on the plot in order to provide structure for the gameplay. Novels don’t have that kind of limitation at all. On those grounds, I’m curious to see what you’d think of Planetarian (also by Key/Visual Arts). I’ve never played it, but from what I’ve heard it might fit your description. It’s not really supernatural (barring the setting, which takes place in the post-apocalyptic future), and there’s no sex whatsoever. But then again, it’s really not a traditional visual novel, in that it’s not interactive.

I’m also somewhat disconcerted with how you seemed to have distilled the enjoyment of romance stories down to a science. I have respect for your relatively intelligent posts and well thought-out ideas, but to suggest that fans of Kanon and AIR are “unenlightened, not so well-read” seems rather over-the-top. I’ve only ever seen one single eroge adaptation (unless Utawarerumono counts), and I’ve never played a visual novel before, but to suggest that those who liked these over Honey & Clover are uncultured rather reeks of arrogance. It truly is a danger to establish an objective standard (character driven vs. plot driven, no supernatural “crutches”, etc.) to a singularly subjective field, the enjoyment of romance stories. Maybe this isn’t what you were exactly intending to convey, but that’s the feeling I got. My apologies if otherwise.

Pffft… it’s simply unrealistic to expect the same level of plot-development and character development in the anime as you would in a literature. I think it is unfair to take a literary lense for hardcore 500 page novel and use it to examine the story of an anime series. It would almost always be the case that the anime is shallow in every single respect. This is due to technical limitations.

Besides, anime being a visual medium is much more suited for fantasy type story thus the supernatural elements in AIR. In another word these type of story elements naturally fits well with anime.

Now consider Honey&Clover as an anime series. The “anime” that is H&C basically talking heads with minimal movement. That’s all there is, the so-called “character interaction”. If I remove the visuals and leave only the sound clip, it would basically tell the same story and you lose you about 5 percent of the experience. In this way H&C is not a particularly well suited for an anime series.

While I agree with most of your main points–I too found “Kanon” (original; haven’t finished the new one) and “Air” more contrived than moving, especially compared to the feast of nuanced writing that is “Honey and Clover”–I don’t think that all great writing/literature is necessarily character driven. What you wrote, that conflict and plot must arise naturally out of character, is very true for literary fiction and realistic drama. It’s what I was taught in creative writing class, and it’s what I aspire to in my own writing.

But there are whole genres of great fiction where setting and atmosphere predominates (arguably, “Lord of the Rings” fits under this, as well as a lot of hard SF), or plot (most mystery fiction). Not that those types of stories can’t have vivid and complex characters, but especially in fantasy fiction, archetypal characters are often not only just OK but are expected. The quest, or the mystery, or the concept predominate; the story ends when those things end, and that’s OK. Many mythological stories fall in that category too. Granted, the main effect that these kinds of stories have on us is more like “cool!” rather than tears, but I think that’s OK too.

I think the problem with “Air” and “Kanon” is that they both aspire to be character-driven dramas that make you cry out of deep empathy, but both indulge in some unworkable genre mixing that take the focus away from where it ought to be. (Plus the predetermined outcomes that you already mentioned.) The characterization also seems constructed out of a rubric or a sheet–take x number of basic traits, add y number of cute quirks, and you have a character. Where “H&C” excelled was in how accurately it showed the inner workings of a person; so many times, especially in the monologues, I kept saying–yes, that’s precisely what it felt like. Empathy for your character is built on this foundation. “H&C” is one of the few animes anywhere that even comes close to the kind of characterization I expect as a matter of course in good literary fiction, and while snobbery is always a danger and a fault, the truth is that reading Dostoevsky or Victor Hugo tends to spoil a person. :) (You know, I never thought about the connection between “Crime and Punishment” and “Death Note”…)

I’d say you overdid this one, Owen.

I’m sorry, but really, I find myself wondering “why” when I read this post and these comments.

How can you seek to critique visual novels as a whole when you haven’t even played one? Your basing your entire thought process on two rather lackluster adaptions. This line particularly got me, “the average eroge has practically no chance for error when it comes to adaptation.” Good god, that is so wrong. There has not been an eroge adaption to date that has encompassed all the nuances of the game’s storytelling. The purpose of eroge anime adaptions is to sell more of the original game, to wet the pallet if you will. While VN’s can be just as moronic as their adaptions, they are just as often much more complex, such as Fate/stay Night. You can’t just merely talk about an entire form of entertainment based of second-hand sources, which anime adaptions basically are.

Kanon and Air are hardly the best representatives of VN’s. Certainly they were popular in their time, but the field has come a long way since then, revolutionized and expanded. The reason Key is revered is because they got the ball rolling back in 1999 with Kanon, showing what could be done with VN’s, particularly romance ones, but this doesn’t mean they stayed with the ball. Other companies have appeared. Type-Moon is probably the most popular these days, with FSN one of the best selling VN’s ever, eclipsing even Key’s works. Nitro+ is another giant, focusing on works of supernatural and sci-fi origins, like the lovecraftian mecha Demonbane or the mixture of werewolves and cyborgs in Gekkou no Carnivale. Leaf made To Heart and its sequals, which in some ways were an even bigger revolution then Kanon, because they showed that good romance could come from simple slice-of-life stories without supernatural elements.

You seem to keep dismissing the fact that VN’s contain sex as irrelevant. I beg to differ. Sex is an overwhelmingly important fact in VN’s, maybe not storywise (though one could argue that sex is the ultimate culmination of any love) but commercially. Clannad was actually hurt by the fact it didn’t contain sex scenes, prompting the 18+ semi-sequal. While the sells of PS2 games seem to work against this fact, they don’t. PS2 versions only come out out one to two years after the original game, and are more of a way to expand the property and squeeze that last bit of money out of fans. Only really popular games get PS2 adaptions anyways, similar to anime adaptions.

And I say, what’s wrong with sex in games? What’s wrong with some healthy adult entertainment? You keep talking like it’s some kind of taboo to have sex in games, even if it’s already such a well established practice. I see nothing wrong with the inclusion of sex scenes, which usually make up to like 1/16 of any good VN. If a game has a good story it will stand on those merits; that’s okay. If it’s truly bad we just won’t hear about it. There’s a reason there’s the whole field of VN’s devoted purely to sex. There’s a time where people want story and a time where people want sex. Mixing the two is just a natural extension of this. The point is that since the time Kanon first came out, the VN field has blossomed like any other media to conatine many different genres, forms, and ideas. Invariably, some will be bad and some will be good, but they can’t be simplifyed to one thing.

I think the funniest thing about your essay here, is that ironically it’s structured in the exact same way that you’ve been ranting is unintelligible for a story to be written: It’s as if you came up with the concept of “emotional honesty,” (your overarching plot) then took took several eroges (your characters) and used baseless or just plain wrong arguments (plot devices) to get to your final claim (wish fulfillment). Isn’t that funny? Now don’t get me wrong, I think you’re on to something here with what you’re saying, but you really lose points when you say that Scryed is like Les mes, or Deathnote has interesting characters. That’s almost as bad as saying Kanon is entirely plot driven.

I’m going to be honest, I don’t usually read your blog because I feel like most of the essays you write are structured like this. You get a cool concept, but then you struggle finding ways to illustrate it correctly, and in doing so I end up reading something that I feel had potential, but never quite fulfills said potential due to a bad foundation in argument. You could say that my problem is in how your theories come off. When I read your work, often I feel like you come up with a concept first, and then go back to choose what random anime will be used as examples. But it’s as if your examples never really fit.

For example, compared to Kanon, both Deathnote and Scryed have amazingly contrived characters who often don’t interact in logical fashions. Both stories are incredibly plot driven and neither of them create nearly the emotional attachment to their characters that you get when watching Kanon. I remember freaking out at the end of Scryed when whatsherface finally used her alter power, because it was so underwhelming and cliche that it made me want to fart acid at my television. On the other hand, Deathnote was even worse, as the characters are often So one dimensional and the scenerios So contrived that I felt I was losing brain cells watching a wannabe genius battle of idiots.

While Kanon did have an overarching plot and several story arcs, you can hardly say that the story was plot driven. If you really think about it, the story is only interesting due to Yuuichi’s interactions with the different girls. There is no explanation for the crazy things that happen in that city, there is no explanation for why they all seem to happen to Yuuichi, because none of that matters. What matters is that they happen, and how Yuuichi deals with them and grows as a person. You can say that having the scenarios as a basis makes the emotions a little less genuine, but that’s frankly a personal bias.

People like endings for the same reason people don’t like endings. Some people enjoy having closure so they don’t feel as if they wasted their time on something for 13 hours. That doesn’t mean they’re not well read. Others like open ended or anti-climatic endings better, because it leaves the characters room to grow in new ways in the viewer’s mind. That doesn’t mean they’re well read. You can’t really say either of them are wrong even if the former is more common.

I could go on, really, for several more paragraphs about why your logic is flawed, but the spark I had in the beginning just died and I frankly don’t care anymore. The bottom line is that plot does not immediately overlap character drive in stories. Compare something like DBZ to something like Seirei no Moribito and you should be able to see the difference. That is all, goodnight.

I’m going to be commenting here, since I couldn’t organize my thought processes well enough to reply to the original post. Having read all of your comments, as well as the others made previously as well as in this post, I’m going to have to increase the numbers of people disagreeing with you by yet another person.

Although, normally, I found your blog to be well thought out and interesting, I found myself struggling inherently against your opinion this time around. I think this is because, as sethjohnson pointed out, of your choice of the term “emotional honesty.” Catchy though it may be, the connotation of the term is inherently black and white — in saying that one show is “emotionally honest” when what you really mean is that you can relate to the characters on a personal intimate level, makes a person who can relate to something you personally find to be emotionally dishonest feel like their emotions are as fake as the characters to whom they can relate, according to your logic. In your choice of wording, you made your initial post an underhanded personal attack at anyone who disagreed with you, which is likely why the response has been so impassioned, myself included.

Aside from semantics, I have issues with your point about characters driving the plot being better than plot driving the characters. To me, this is a heinous misconception on your part. Characters need to drive the plot as well as the plot driving the characters — those two things cannot be mutually exclusive, because if you only have the plot driving the characters (take for example, a zombie film), your characters become fodder for outside circumstance, and if you have the character driving the plot (take for example, an American teen drama) than the show dissolving into pointless existential crises that often reach no real conclusion because the characters go in circles without circumstances that could bring out new, interesting traits in them. The plot must interact with the characters in such a way as to provoke change or inspire growth in preexisting characteristics, and the characters themselves have to react in human ways to the circumstances presented to them. The beauty of a story is when the plot, no matter how fantastical or based on realistic circumstance it may be, is something that only brings out what was already there in the character. There are shows that abuse plot to make a character be something they aren’t in any sense (last four episodes of Gantz, anyone?) but there are also times when there is no plot over the pointless jabber of the characters (The Bell Jar, anyone?).

That being said, I feel that you expect too much out of what is essentially, despite the (on average) 8 hour time frame it takes to consume, a rather short piece of work. Anime, as a visual medium, needs to show it’s audience most of the characterization, because telling it, as can be done in a novel, takes too much time. A dramatic and realistic anime set in a relatively low-action setting can simulate a novel in effects of character depth because it can overlay shot that are essentially talking hands, or people sitting doing nothing, with monologue, or dialogue, and through that the shows tone and effect is established the same way a books is — through words. Though I understand you consider yourself an anime ‘literaist,’ I feel that completely ignoring an anime’s storytelling aspects achieved through the visuals is a mistake. Placing an emphasis on the writing is not a problem, but in a visual medium the visuals are every bit as scripted as the dialogue, to the extent of the direction of the camera, the framing of the shot, as well as some idea of the music and lighting (though since some of this is the result of storyboarding, does that make it unscripted? In my opinion, not at all). Even character designs are intended to give hints as to what the character is like just as much as costuming and props are intended to do in film. In short, what a novel can express in a few sentences, a visual medium must express through the characters movements, their facial expressions, their lighting, setting, props, so on so forth. A moment of silence in a novel can say more than a moment of silence in an anime because the novel can look inside the character’s head for that entire page, whereas in a three second silence in an anime can only say the equivalent of a couple sentences. Comparing a book’s prowess in storytelling to an anime’s, particularly an anime where there is too much happening to indulge time on inappropriate monologues or absurd dialogue (ever gotten annoyed when anime characters have entire conversation during one swing of a sword?), is an unfair standard.

I’ll finish my (rather long) rant with this last statement: Kanon I found to be one of the most ‘emotionally honest’ peices of work I have ever seen. The important thing to realize is that the main character of Kanon is the only one who really gets appropriate screen time in the series, which makes sense, considering he’s supposed to be the main character of the original eroge — aka he’s the one we are supposed to relate to, the only complete person in the series because he is us. All other characters in the series are supposed to inspire us to care for them, but not precisely to relate with them. More the case that we should view them the same way that we do our friends — we hurt because they hurt (just as we relate to Yuuichi’s mourning over the loss of friends, and his agony at their hardships though going through none directly affecting his personal welfare), even though we don’t precisely understand why they hurt. They are objectified, yes, but no more than we objectify our friends. It can’t be helped — with us being Yuuichi, all we see of Ayu is her stealing taiyaki, all we see of Nayuki is her running team and connection to her mother. But Yuuichi doesn’t let the relatively short time he spends with the people around him affect his opinion of them being complete people, and because the audience relates to them, we view the characters as he does — outside of ourselves, but a piece of our experience. Essentially, Kanon is merely the vehicle for Yuuichi’s story, just as the eroge is the vehicle for the viewer to experience new “people” and their indivudal “stories”. I mean, how boring would you or I look in only a 26 episode series, as what are essentially the side characters?

Accidentally posted that in the wrong thread, sorry for the double post. feel free to delete if you have that function. ^.^:;