Elitism and the anime blogosphere; Anime elitism as a social construct
Posted by: Owen S in Anime, tags: Commentary, Community, The Anime Blogging Collective, Theory & StructureAbout this double-feature with Impz over at THAT Anime Blog: For those of you not in the know, there’s all manner of bloggers, about 20 give or take, that can be found over at #animeblogger @ irc.irchighway.net on a fairly regular basis. Now the average age in the channel is anywhere from late teens to early twenties, and naturally, when you put a group of people with that median age together in a space for prolonged periods, fun stuff happen — it’s like a younger, self-absorbed Survivor in action, but with more e/n and angst thrown into the mix.
The topic of elitism came about due to my being bored and wanting to spice things up a little bit. Much like Lelouch and his Order of the Black Knights, I wanted to see how easy it was to bring about revolution discussion, albeit in a very roundabout way, regarding the topic, and what better way to start then by applying the label to myself? Unfortunately, I rubbed all of two people the wrong way in the process, and this is where the fun began.
Not with internet drama, heaven forbid, but with the term “elitist poser”. Now this wasn’t as planned. Of course, in the name of discussion the label “elitist” was still fine, but “poser”? The latter has an explicitly negative connotation attached to it, and as ironic as it was that the one calling me an elitist poser was a poser himself (pretending you know enough Japanese to watch raws begs the question: if you know so much Japanese why aren’t you watch raws all the time, and if you don’t then why are you blogging about the episodes- wait, you’re doing it just for numbers’ sake, nevermind), it still annoyed me enough to include a satirical paragraph on said person in this post, which ends here.
But I digress. A poser is something I’m not, since I believe I’ve already demonstrated my ability to defend and elaborate everything I say, in addition to actually knowing what it is I’m writing about, unlike that two-bit hack of a blogger who pretends he knows enough about raws and Japanese in order to impress his readers. I welcome the term elitist, however. Why is that so?
In order to explain that we’ll have to look at two things; firstly, the root word, “elite”, and the word itself. A quick look through Dictionary.com reveals several definitions for “elite”, of which I’ll gladly take the first, which is (often used with a plural verb) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons. Following which, it wouldn’t be too unreasonable to relate that to the term “elitist”, of which I’ll take the definition consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.
Let’s take a step back for a moment — note at this point that the term “elite” here is in reference to taste, which would in turn mean that I’ve got to define “taste” before I can go on to explain things. Because this isn’t really complicated terminology, I’ll refer to Dictionary.com here, again, using definition #20, which is listed as the sense of what is fitting, harmonious, or beautiful; the perception and enjoyment of what constitutes excellence in the fine arts, literature, fashion, etc.
a typical elitist (right) archetype as seen by the masses (left)
Now that that’s all defined and in place, it wouldn’t be too unreasonable to now state that an elitist in this context would be defined as someone who is conscious, or has the pride of belonging to a group who regards their perception and enjoyment of the anime they watch, as the best.
However, does anime elitism really exist, or is it a social construct? I’ll say it’s more of the latter, as, much like moe, there seems to be certain pre-defined patterns in which I’ve noticed bloggers and fans alike predictably fall into, three to be exact.
Elitism in Quality
The first type of elitism, also the most common, sound, and reasonable type, and the one that I subscribe to, by some coincidence. Those who subscribe to the school of Elitism in Quality generally champion their perceived value of the anime that they watch over anything else. They pride themselves on being highly selective, choosing only to watch series that matches their private list of criteria.
Sadly, Elitism in Quality is a double-edged sword due to its modus operandi. The Quality elitist evaluates anime using only his (or hers) standards and his alone, which is a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. It’s a good thing because the Quality elitist isn’t influenced by trends, popular opinion, controversy, and the like. Typically rational in nature, the Quality elitist is more concerned with the individual value of an anime, and compares things reasonably, e.g. comparing sola to Kanon’s story due to the same writer being involved for both series, or not comparing Lucky Star to Azumanga due to their implicitly different natures.
On the other hand, it’s a bad thing because the Quality elitist relies on an existing, underlying structure of taste that makes up the foundation of what the Quality elitist stands for. For example, if a Quality elitist believes that harem anime is exempt from standards of storytelling that other genres like shounen and shoujo wouldn’t, this then means that the lens by which said elitist evaluates all other harem anime will subsequently be flawed. In order for a Quality elitist to be true to the nature of one, he or she has to first of all be very well-versed in things like defining a “good” and “bad” anime. The true Quality elitist knows how to examine a series with a critical eye; being vocal and unforgiving about its flaws, while pushing its merits to the front. The true Quality elitist knows when to separate fan from critic, and doesn’t let his or her favourites stand in the way of evaluation.
As is the case with the other two types of elitism, there are subsets within Elitism in Quality, all of which are irrelevant to this definition, due to their being inferior to the pure strain of Quality elitism after being watered down somewhat. Common subsets include those who possess impeccable taste but bash a particular animation studio at any given time (which is irrelevant, not at all critical and reasonable, and is against the nature of a real Quality elitist), or those who generally like good anime but have a weakness for the occasional insipid and terrible show, ignoring all major flaws and inventing merits because “the girls are so hot” (which is against the nature of the Quality elitist to separate fan from critic).
Elitism in Obscurity
The second type of elitism, also a somewhat rare variety, that also possesses an extremist streak. If you thought those who like indie music are weird for using terms like “selling out”, listening to bands with unpronounceable and eccentric names, and championing a multi-faceted type sound that sounds like a better Beatles, think again. Those who subscribe to the school of Elitism in Obscurity as their namesake implies, champion obscurity over anything. Is everyone talking about it? I’ll pass. It’s popular AND good? Nope, it’s not good enough for me. You mean it’s a series from 5 years ago? I’m on it.
If Elitism in Quality is the Prince of Persia then Elitism in Obscurity is the Sandwraith, essentially the same person in a different make of a different time line, whose ultimate intentions are still good. Elitism in Obscurity has quality, there’s no denying that, but as the typical Obscurity elitist takes pride in avoiding series of new quality, their judgement of what makes an anime good or bad is for the most part chronological/social; instead of following the latest seasons’ offerings they’d be happier perusing older shows, through DVD or otherwise. They take pride in watching old Miyazaki movies, shows from a year or so ago, or something that isn’t under the spotlight currently. The Obscure elitist enjoys little, if any at all, new shows, and it’s to their loss that they do so.
It should be blatantly obvious by now where the weakness of an Obscurity elitist lies. The older it is the better. Any consideration as to the merits of the latest will have to wait, because the Obscurity elitist is busy re-watching Cowboy Bebop for the third time this year. Is anyone talking about it? If it isn’t, there’s a pretty huge chance that the Obscurity elitist is. If everyone’s busy blogging about it, count him or her out. Those who subscribe to the school of Elitism in Obscurity are indier than indie, and they would rather relive the “good old days” than face this “contemporary moe rubbish”.
That being said and done, is there any value in the contribution of an Obscurity elitist to the anime blogosphere or community at large? I’d have to say yes. Looking back doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s wrong; however, looking back for reminiscence’s sake is, because it just doesn’t make good sense to the Quality, or the Snobbery elitist, to ignore what’s readily available on-hand through BitTorrent in favour of DVD thinpacks or cinema releases. However, the merit of an Obscurity elitist lies in reminding the other two elitists, and everyone else, that we tend to overlook the less flashy, heavier anime that comes with a new season in favour of their louder, more vibrant counterparts, and that’s where a Obscurity elitist ultimately shines.
Subsets within Elitism in Obscurity are the inverse of the negative nature of the subsets found within Elitism in Quality: instead of watering down the Obscurity elitist’s creed they instead enhance it, and are positive as a result. An example of this would be those progressive and liberal enough to include the current season’s fansubs alongside those their extensive, neverending DVD reviews and retrospectives (instead from detracting from the nature of an Obscurity elitist this instead builds on it, as there is more balance, making the Obscurity elitist seem more reasonable as a result).
Elitism in Snobbery
The third type of elitist, whose nature is innately extremist and more irrational than the other two elitists, and who number about the same as the Quality elitist. You know what they say about method in madness? The Snobbery elitist is that madness embodied through and through. Its namesake comes from how the typical Snobbery elitist will overlook entire series by virtue of its genre alone, often to levels of religious fervour.
To continue the Prince of Persia metaphor, if Elitism in Obscurity is the Sandwraith then Elitism in Snobbery is the Dark Prince. While the Quality elitist discerns from sieving through controversy to the meat beneath, and the Obscurity elitist ignores it by choosing to watch something after everyone’s stopped raving or ranting against it, the Snobbery elitist saves his or herself the bothersome trouble by just not watching anything from a particular genre. Returning to the Prince of Persia metaphor, while the Obscurity elitist is the Sandwraith, he or she is essentially Prince of Persia, who is the Quality elitist, which means that as much as the Obscurity elitist differs from the Quality elitist in terms of appearance and powers, they’re of the same make.
The Snobbery elitist, however, is the Dark Prince by virtue of being a Prince of Persia gone wrong. I’d like to think that those who follow Elitism in Snobbery started out as a disciple of the Elitism in Quality school of thought, but as time went by, and more and more shitty anime of a particular genre aired alongside the gems season after season, they decided to throw reason to the wind by ignoring that particular genre altogether, which is where the metaphor comes in here and explains the “dark side”.
It should be obvious what’s wrong with the Snobbery elitist. The assumption applied by those who follow Elitism in Snobbery is that a particular genre is structurally flawed and that no other genre is as flawed as that one, be it shoujo (the pretty boys are gay), shounen (are they still on Namek?), mahou shoujo (I’m no paedophile), mecha (CRAWWWLING INNNN MY SKINNN), harem (I’d rather watch hentai) or any other particular genre that they happen to focus their hatred of upon, non-applicable generalisations notwithstanding.
Are there any redeeming aspects to the Snobbery elitist, then? Again, since I happen to be a Quality elitist myself, I’d have to say yes. The intentions of the Snobbery elitist are good, nevermind the actions. All that the Snobbery elitist stands for is to remind the other two elitists how a particular genre can be fatally flawed and beyond redemption if it sticks to the well-worn tropes, clichs, and archetypes. If the Obscurity elitist is good in showing how something previously thought bad by the masses isn’t that bad after all when it gets out of the spotlight of controversy, then the Snobbery elitist is good for reminding us how clichs should remain just that — clichs, not plot devices, or characters. The Snobbery elitist does good by showing us how shows like Claymore, which break genre conventions, are to be awed, and how those that transcend the genre, like Darker than Black, should be praised.
Subsets within Elitism in Snobbery, like Elitism in Obscurity, are positive in nature. An example would be those who occasionally break their beliefs that a genre is flawed in its basic nature to sample a critically acclaimed offering from said genre (I don’t see how that wouldn’t be a good thing, since it’s win-win: if it’s good then the Snobbery elitist has reason to watch more from said genre, if it sucks then it reinforces the beliefs of the Snobbery elitist).
–
After writing all that I’ve got to admit that I’ve realised I’m not as pure Quality elitist than I thought. If you asked me which camp I belonged to I’d have to admit that while my style is generally Quality elitist, I take the good elements from both the Obscurity and Snobbery elitists to combine for great effect. Maybe a mix of all three would be the Ultimate elitist, or something? I don’t know. What do you think? Do you identify yourself as “anime elitist” to begin with at all, or have my descriptions of the three major elitist types made you wonder if you might be one? Tell me what you think.
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July 2nd, 2007 at 10:37 pm
[...] S, or of Cruel Angel Theses (with a new spanking site by the way), has asked of me to do an entry regarding the state of anime [...]
July 2nd, 2007 at 10:49 pm
…I’m probably the reverse, the anti-elitist. And I’m pretty extreme against any form of elitism.
Look, Owen, in 4chan terms, you’re a troll, albeit a really well-spoken one. I’m just making a personality call on how you act online, but you’re just a more refined Anonymous. So there.
July 2nd, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Drm, dude, I need to point out to you that even UrbanDictionary has very differing definitions on “troll” and “poser”, and poser != troll. Note how being one doesn’t mean you are the other. But troll is fine. Poser, on the other hand, ugh… I hope he doesn’t post here in the comments.
July 2nd, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Somehow, It feels somewhat like a description of in terms of individual scenarios of a certain form of elitism in terms of anime types, rather than trying to explain the underlying behaviors behind elitism.
I cannot agree on your reason that stretches a bit too much in terms of snobbery. It should be apparent from my entry ^^;;;
July 3rd, 2007 at 12:18 am
wow… that was enlightening… i always figured myself as, by your description, an elitist in quality… but after reading through your article i noticed that i also have some traits of the other two school of elitism… but still i believe myself to be mainly an elitist in quality with a hint of the other school of elitism… (3)
i don’t mind other people who are quality elitist cause they watch what they like… but i can’t help but feel irked by pure obscurity and snobbery elitist, by pure i mean those that are not in the subset groups, cause i feel that they just do it to be different and no other valid reason…
but in defense to the snobbery elitist they could just be avoiding a genre due to a traumatic experience like when an acquaintance suggested to me the anime divergence eve after just one episode i was traumatized by the overly disproportioned bodies, i’m a lolicon myself but that’s not the point here XD, and after that i tend to avoid anime and tend to dislike anime characters with character designs that remind me of that aniem… some people just have bad experiences with really bad anime but its also important to move on and give some anime with similarities to a traumatic anime in the past a chance.. you’ll never know you might find a hidden gem or you might be reliving a horrific experience all over again… XD
and in defense to the obscurity elitist it could just be due to, also traumatic experience with (insert-anime-title-here)tards that make them prefer to watch obscure anime more, but obscure doesn’t necessarily mean good and it also doesn’t necessarily mean bad also… i just also hope they can give some currently hyped anime a chance cause they’re not all bad but they’re not all good either…
overall i think that the most tolerable elitist out there for me is the quality elitist because since i think i mostly am one i can understand that we know what we want and rate series according to our own set of criteria… and if the other one happens to disagree with you at least you found someone to debate and converse with and maybe share your criteria with so that you can also improve your own criteria and continue to evolve to being the best quality elitist… XD
July 3rd, 2007 at 12:34 am
“For example, if a Quality elitist believes that harem anime is exempt from standards of storytelling that other genres like shounen and shoujo wouldnt, this then means that the lens by which said elitist evaluates all other harem anime will subsequently be flawed.”
“…or those who generally like good anime but have a weakness for the occasional insipid and terrible show, ignoring all major flaws and inventing merits because the girls are so hot (which is against the nature of the Quality elitist to separate fan from critic).”
These are some interesting statements.. It is definitely true that every series, regardless of genre, needs to have at least a certain level of overall quality in order to be evaluated as “good;” it needs to be more than an assembly of “cookie-cutter” genre conventions slapped together to earn being called a “good” show. However, shows from different genres do receive different expectations out of the viewer– and they should, because genre conventions provide an excellent standard for evaluation.
Let’s take Nanoha as an example. As you and many others have said in the past, much of the appeal of Nanoha was in the fact that, while on the surface it was your run-of-the-mill mahou shoujo series, it in fact was a smooth synthesis of mahou shoujo and shounen, taking the best conventions from each and discarding those often perceived as negative. Can you honestly say that the “real” storytelling in any Nanoha series was on par with that of the various stories more centered around the dramatic elements? I’d say “certainly not,” but I hold Nanoha in high regard anyway because that’s not what one should expect from that kind of show.
So, if a “quality elitist” evaluates a harem anime as “good” just because the every member of the harem is pretty, is humorous, and has a storyline that makes you feel all fuzzy inside, that is fine if that is all that is expected of harem anime regardless of a lack of things like character development. The desirable traits of a work in a genre that allow it to be called “good” are defined by the tastes of connoiseurs of that genre, and so each genre needs to be evaluated differently in the context of its generic peers.
I guess this comes down to how we are to define what you call “major flaws.” In your mind, does ignoring a lack of serious character development in a harem comedy constitute “ignoring all major flaws?”
July 3rd, 2007 at 12:45 am
What we need to read about is your methodology of obtaining said observations.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:20 am
As someone who doesn’t shun varying genres, I wouldn’t like to consider myself a elitist by choice. I can become an elitist in obscurity based on my backlog and how long it takes for me to watch stuff compared to others though. :3
But then again, elitism is subjective, and how I percieve myself won’t be how others percieve me. As you already noted, elitism’s downside focuses on the seperation of what’s considered watchable and what’s not. That defining boundary seems more like a limitation from seeing potentially intriguing things outside of the realm of your standards. And I tend to dislike the idea of not stepping “outside of the box” and seeing what could be there.
It’s good that you also had Impz post on this, since what he lists as elitism seems more what I thought it was. Now I realize that it’s a subset of a larger elitism. Not that that’s a good thing. :P
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:22 am
I was really hoping to /popcorn with some anime blogosphere-specific dorama (as per the title), but this was really more a discussion of elitism in general.
Also, isn’t elitism really just an inability to understand why something may appeal to others (unless they are stupid noobs)?
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:50 am
I guess if what this entry says is true, I am not an elitist :)
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:37 am
What the hell ever happened to enjoying good anime and disliking bad anime? Why do we need to be elitist at all? Face it, it’s not like we’re all enjoying high art here. It’s animated entertainment meant to make us feel good for a half hour and sell merchandise. It’s not like we all need to get so angry about it. So what if someone likes something popular/controversial/ or “good,” even though that is a really subjective term itself? Just watch the anime that you like and don’t worry what everyone thinks about it.
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:11 am
Impz: Yes.
jroxas: Yay, metacritic! Awesome. I do agree that “good” is ridiculously subjective thanks to genre conventions, and that ignoring the differences between genres isn’t at all wise, but I don’t think I could forgive myself if I went without at least mentioning it in passing.
The “storytelling” remark I made wasn’t the be all and end all, though, I did mention that it was an example anyway. So yeah. One of my criterion, for instance, on what makes an anime “good” or “bad” would be how much sense it makes to the non-anime viewer, Lucky Star notwithstanding; does moe alone do anything for those who aren’t otaku? Hardly, I’ll reckon. Nanoha has moe, but it has a strong story, the usual stuff about love, justice, friendship, and everything else anyone on the street could relate to. It is on par with the good shows that you’re presumably comparing it to, but that’s just me.
The other thing about character development, well, really depends on what the lack of character development does to the anime. Does it subtract or add to the experience of the anime? I’d say the answer would usually be the former. Even Love Hina, like I’ll say, had great character development as a harem. I don’t see it all that often, sadly.
tj han: Participant and non-participant observation. Unstructured interviews.
TheBigN: One of many downsides. :P I don’t claim to really enjoy not watching Hayate, Nagasarete, or Seto while it’s airing, but since there are other shows that scream for my immediate attention, I can’t be bothered to watch them at the expense of other, better shows. Definitely a downside.
Kabitzin: No, elitism is about having standards and actually caring about whether or not you’re watching trash. Big difference between 24 minutes of anime and 24 minutes of animated boobs and ass.
omo: Only because you’re a wannabe. :D
Demian: I never said anyone had to be elitist. I’ve gotta disagree with the “high art” comment though, but I can write another post on that someday if you want.
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:52 am
Please, 90% of all anime is crap, albiet enjoyable crap. The other 10% I’ll concede does have the potential to be labeled “high art.” I’d be very interested in seeing what your views are, since it seems nothing is too shallow for you to find something deep in it.
July 3rd, 2007 at 6:25 am
The same could be said of all movies, TV dramas, and cartoons…? Really, I don’t know where you’re going with that one, but okay, sure. That “90%” remark is old — take a look at the trash they air at the movies and on the idiot box nowadays, if you want to talk shallow. My archives are at your perusal.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:58 am
So those who are not elitist do not care if they are watching trash, and they have no standards…?
I don’t agree with a lot of your terminology, especially the “Snobbery Elitist.” Your definition suggests a better term would be a “Genre Elitist.” I would argue that all of these various subsets of Elitists belong under the umbrella of Snobbery. How does random Elitist A really know if Elitist A has good taste?
The shape of your argument suggests that most types of Elitists (as you define them) are irrational, and make their choice based upon gross generalizations. However, the type that you happen to be a part of makes choices completely rationally, and will not accept any flaw.
I believe this response illustrates your mode of thinking. If a series has a lot of fanservice, it must be bad. However, not all anime is meant to accomplish the same purpose. Not every series strives to make the viewer think. And many viewers are looking for a series that may perhaps be full of silly humor, or fanservice. I suppose you could say that this is an example of you conveniently taking the “good elements” of an otherwise “innately extremist and more irrational” subset of elitism.
Personally, I think the use of these loaded terms like elite, and quality elitist are simply ways for Person X to suggest to other people that he/she is an expert whose generalizations should be taken at face value. The qualities you mention really define an unforgiving student of anime at best, and more likely paint the picture of yet another irrational self-proclaimed superior viewer.
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:46 am
YO DIS B ARCADE BUMSTEAD FROM TSUKIHIMAY I’D HIT IT
July 3rd, 2007 at 11:00 am
I suppose by those definitions I would be an Elitist in Snobbery, though within the subset that shares elements with Elitists in Quality. I do break out of my ‘genre’ if a show has interesting elements or comes highly recommended (it also depends on how you define the genre—the genre of the storytelling, or the genre of the trappings?), and had both results to pretty much the same conclusion. I think being one is more moderate than ‘extremist’, though…sometimes you really think a genre is inherently flawed, and sometimes it’s just not your thing.
That said, I know quite a few people who would not forgive a show at all if it has boobs. But really, that belongs to a whole new level of rabidness that might have been better put as an extremist subset in itself.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Owen: I do have standards, but that doesn’t mean I abandon them. I can point out the differences in the Kino novels and animated series, the flaws of Nanoha StrikerS, etc etc etc, but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy them.
Point is, as long as you don’t try to shove your opinions down my throat, I won’t do the same.
I am so temptted to abandon my month-long hiiatus to make my own comment…
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:26 pm
[...] the people who are opposed to this move are either non-entities or too absorbed in other news, like LOL ELITISM and LOL AX [...]
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
hmm… I could loosely be classified as Elitist in Snobbery and partially an Elitist Poser. Thought it is more like I _know_ what I like and I prefer to watch only the shows I know I would like. So when I say such-and-such show is crap, it is not that it is “objectively” crap, it is simply that it does not have anything in it that would hold my interest. Though I do understand the reason for popularity of such-and-such shows, their intended target audience, the “laws of the genre” etc. so if I have to - I can be objective… but it usually makes my brain hurt and eyes bleed.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Kabitzin:
Semantics, surely, but feel free to disagree. Words are only as effective as the meaning we attach to them, if you want to disagree on something like a label, well, go ahead and elaborate. You seem rather fussy about it is what.
“Genre elitist” implies the opposite of the meaning you proposed, at least to me. As “elitist” has a meaning of exclusivity (+) and “genre” is decidedly neutral in nature (+), this would mean that your proposed phrase has the effect of an elitist who thinks that certain genres are superior. See where we’re heading with that one? + and + equals +, if you remember how negatives work.
“Snobbery elitist”, on the other hand, is divided into “snobbery” which has a negative meaning of general disdain for things (-) and elitism (+), which, when combined, translates to - and + equals -, which is as simple as it gets, really.
Of course you can go ahead and claim that “elitist” has a negative meaning attached to it, which would invert what I’ve just said and prove what you said correct, but that brings us back to how you’re focusing on irrelevant semantics. I hope I’ve made myself clear on that.
That is correct, but as things stand I hope you do realise that my definitions were trying to illustrate boundaries (which means going the length of the spectrum) as far as they stand, not profile every single thing about each form of elitism, due to length constraints.
The unstated assumption you’re making here is that you’re under the impression that this is what I said:
24 minutes of animated boobs and ass = fanservice = bad
24 minutes of anime = “series strives to make the viewer think” = mutually exclusive from fanservice & comedy
and it was a nice attempt at trying to drag what I said out of its original meaning, but no dice, I’m afraid. Assuming that my first statement means “fanservice”, where exactly did I explicitly mention that fanservice was bad? Contrasting two things does not mean I’m assigning values to them, so it appears like you jumped the gun on that one. Ditto the second.
I suppose this is an example of how you derive alternate meanings from what I say, conveniently shaping them to suit your argument? Right.
Wonderful things, these personal opinions. /golfclap
Why do I feel you’re picking on semantics again? It’s alright, in any case, feel free to elaborate on the specifics.
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Well, the reason I pick at the semantics first, is that in addition to the denotation of your words, there are also connotations. As I mentioned immediately, I have a problem with your terminology. I don’t see anything wrong with disagreeing with a label, if the label is inappropriate. Also, I just find some of your definitions puzzling. However, thanks for clearing up what you meant, and hopefully the discussion can at least remain civil.
These are your own words. I did not suggest any alternate definitions, simply what I thought might be an alternate label. I felt given your other naming conventions, this would be reasonable: Quality Elitists base judgements on the quality of a series, Obscurity Elitist base judgements on the obscurity of a series, therefore an Elitist that bases judgements on the genre of a series should be a Genre Elitist. However, this is all a relatively minor point. I was merely trying to give an example of one case where I disagreed with your terminology. I did not intend to delve into positive or negative connotations just yet, and I am not sure that mathematical rules apply to semantics (e.g. “terribly powerful”).
Correct, but taken in the given context, it seems you were drawing a parallel between an anime that met standards and an anime that was trash. You are right to call me on putting words in your mouth, however, you do appear to assign a value to “boobs and ass”.
Without adding extra terms into the mix, your quote suggests that 24 minutes of animated boobs and ass would be trash. This is based off of the parallel structure of your sentence. Now of course it would be simple to say that you did not explicitly state this, however, the flow of your words does suggest this conclusion. If you did not mean to say that 24 minutes boobs and ass are categorically trash, I would still find your statements misleading.
Which brings me to my next point. You mention that I am merely being picky with semantics, and this is true. The reason for this is that you are defining something that is tricky to define and elicits strong reactions. If you were talking about a red sphere and you called it a crimson ball, no one would be confused as to what you were talking about. However, in this case, the subject of your argument is one that people attribute positive and negative values to. This is why the specific words you choose are important.
I don’t mean to preach, I just want to clarify why I harp on certain word choices. I also want to say that your article was thought-provoking, and I am not trying to attack you personally (in reference to your sarcastic responses above).
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:34 pm
By the way, how does Quality Elitism differ from plain old Elitism?
Don’t Obscurity Elitists do the same thing (their list is comprised of one element, the obscurity of a series)? The same could be said of Snobbery Elitists who base their selections on genre type.
It seems that the various splinterings would be something like Art Elitism, Music Elitism, Story Elitism, etc. etc. Are you saying perhaps that Quality Elitists are those who consider more than one of these subsets in making their choice? If so, how many subsets would one have to consider to be a Quality Elitist? Does the very act of considering multiple schools of elitism make you a Quality Elitist? Just wondering.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:22 am
Forgive me for being all business-like, but maybe certain snobbery or quality elitists that you defined are like that because they are not the target market for these kinds of anime? For example harem series are mainly targeted to males (mostly hot-blooded ones :p), so me being female will tend to avoid this type of show (not saying that all females do not watch harem shows). It really does not make me an elitist towards harem, just says that they did not produce those shows for me. After all, any money-making business has to have a target market.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:46 am
That was a truly epic post.
I definitely qualify as an obscurity elitist in your classification, but I wouldn’t say I’m inordinately proud of that.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:49 am
I meet the “isn’t [easily] influence by public opinion” part of the quality elitism description but I don’t try and eliminate fanboyism from my reviews and such completely. I feel both critical and fanboy elements play a factor in whether a series is “good” and in determining whether I should recommend it to a specific audience (I tend to recommend to specific audiences rather then making generalizations in reviews). Rather, I simply try and make sure the reader can TELL when I’m being a critic and when I’m being a fanboy.
I do admit to have a positive bias with my reviews and discussion, but that’s mainly because I prefer to talk about shows I like (and hence think other people might).
One problem I have when reviewing things a lot of the time, though, is I’ve found what I find good is HIGHLY mood dependent. I’ve had shows that just bounced all over the charts in terms of ranking because of my mood at the time I watched each episode.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Hmm…I guess I’m a quality elitist then! :) My own definition of ‘elitist’ has always been that of a person who considers their own opinion or status to be above those of others - I like what I like but when the day comes when I start bashing other people’s opinions saying “I have better taste than you,” you have permission to shoot me down in flames!
I wasn’t really aware of the subdivisions - the times when I see elitism is during discussions where those involved don’t know the difference between ‘personal opinion’ and ‘fact’. Granted, the line gets blurry at times but I’ve seen numerous occasions in which somebody says “anime X sucks!” and retreats to the old defence of “but that’s just my opinion.” Cue a circular argument in which nobody budges and nothing is learnt or resolved.
July 5th, 2007 at 6:36 am
And this is why issues on elitism should be dealt with with the business end of my bolter.
July 7th, 2007 at 2:50 am
Sorry for late reply, but I’ve been feeling out of it the whole week. Rather a late, comprehensive reply than an early, shitty one I reckon.
Kabitzin:
It was for cadence’s sake actually.
Those math rules I mention (positives and negatives) do apply to simple, non-ambiguous statements (like what I presumed I said), at least from how I see it.
“I don’t not know” = (-) and (-) equals (+)
“I do not know” = (+) and (-) equals (-)
And so on and so forth, Which was the basis for what I said, really.
My bad for not elaborating. I was actually pointing out the difference between something normal and something that was all style with no substance (without intending to add values to that, mind you) so I should have been more specific there.
Noted, thanks for the feedback. As a rule I tend to adopt the tone of the person I’m replying to, so yeah. Your understanding about it is much appreciated.
The thing here with the article I wrote’s that I was trying to further hone down the general idea of “elitism” that’s present within the community, and assign names and what I percieve as values they hold, so that I wouldn’t be talking in very abstract terms, hence the coining of those terms.
No, the idea behind a Quality elitist is someone impartial towards outwards stimuli of any sort, who only picks and chooses based on his or her personal evaluation of something he or she watches, and isn’t influenced by current social values (Obscurity) or genre (Snobbery).
There will always be subsets of those (e.g. Art, Music, Story like you mentioned), I chose “Quality” as the unifying theme for that category because I thought it would be a waste of time trying to pigeonhole other possible incarnations.
orange:
That would be a totally different matter altogether; you’ve got to distinguish between personal preference, and those who go out of their way to avoid something based on a hated genre, I guess.
mangaijin:
I’d like to say, “be proud, or don’t be!” Thanks for your feedback.
Outfo0xZer0:
I usually try to work around this by treating all anime I watch as impartially as possible. Okay, that’s a lie, I watch Lucky Star when I eat my meals, but that’s a special case.
The usual setup’s something that blocks out external stimuli save for the PC monitor, and a relaxed posture, which means watching my anime at night with almost all lights off (cinema-style) and my reclining on a lazy chair a metre or so away.
Martin:
Awesome. :D
I assume it’d be appropriate here to note that I view elitism in a positive light, also because I could foresee myself being somewhat of an apologist towards elitism as an idea.
The thing with elitism as coined by normal standards is that it’s viewed as a negative thing due to the stand-offish attitude adopted by most people who identify with themselves as “elitist”.
For me it’s more of having higher standards, a discerning thing, only that this is discernment taken to a higher level — more of like a belief system that someone would adopt and peruse as long as he or she continues to watch anime.
July 7th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Interesting article!
I noticed today you linked to Grump Factory! Good man. If there are elitist bastards it comes to anime it’s me, and John Mora, at the G.F. Bad anime, bad stuff in general, pains us to no end. Thank goodness there are like-minded carnosaurs (roflz) out there!
I’m especially curious to see what you and the others here think of my Ultimate Hellsing article… link above. \:3
July 8th, 2007 at 12:09 am
I didn’t watch Hellsing so I couldn’t really think what to say of it, but I did leave some comments under the name Owen, you know. Same person. rule41.wordpress.com is my old blog, I just moved over here recently. So yeah.
July 8th, 2007 at 5:42 am
I typed my earlier comment in a bit of a hurry but yeah, I suppose we are painting elitism in a positive light! In my case, it’s not a case of “my taste is better than yours,” (which I view as ‘bad’ elitism) - rather, I’m merely very selective in what I watch. Basically, I have very limited free time to devote to the TV so my standards have become pretty high.
The bad elitism, I think I’m generalising a lot here but I think it works as a general rule of thumb, is just a symptom of insecurity - the same as school bullies, people who pose in flash cars and who knows how many others. They want to get one over on everyone else in their communities.
July 8th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Huh, I think I’m more of a quality AND snobbery elitist; I avoid generally anything bad, and steer clear of mecha and shounen stuff. What’s funny is that some of my friends just follow what I watch. :V
July 14th, 2007 at 12:22 am
[...] we’ve been there with regards to the subject of taste, haven’t we? Judging from initial appearances is something I’m deign to do, although [...]
July 20th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
[...] just read this story at ANN and it really bothered me. Lately we’ve had all this talk about elitism in the anime community, but this one guy is on another level; for those who [...]
July 26th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Personally, I find your definitions annoying, because they seem more a lame attempt to glorify your own brand of elitism more than anything else. After all, while Snobbery Elitists only care what genre it’s from and Obscure Elitists only care how old it is, but Quality Elitists are people who have to be intelligent and knowledgable of the anime scene because they judge an anime for it’s real worth, not the more trivial factors of the other groups and lesser fans.
Seems like nothing more than an ego trip, especially since I’d never call anyone an elitist simply because they have a higher standard of quality. No, elitism in anime is a term used almost exclusively to seperate the user from the lower “fanboys”, to show their superority to the more “simple” fans who enjoy anything that isn’t excellent quality.
You’re really just attempting to inflate your own self worth within the anime community when it comes down to it. It doesn’t help that the brand of elitism you belong to just happened to have no negative drawbacks except: “They have to be smarter because they must be better judges of anime than the average fan.”
What you’re saying, and what you’ll never admit too(unless you’re honest about it) is that you think of yourself as being better than 95% of anime fans.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Shamgi: Personally, Appeal to motive as a special form of ad hominem circumstantial is quite annoying too, which is what you’re doing, so yeah. I’m almost always on #shrinemaiden in any case, so feel free to hit me up there for any clarification.
August 25th, 2007 at 8:32 am
[...] This domain is way better than all the other trashy [...]
April 20th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Anime elitism: why I’m cooler than you and why that doesn’t matter (shockingly delayed editorial #2)…
Maybe it’s the nature of the Internet that ‘elitist’ behaviour and views are so widespread, no matter how much they are derided. I believe that a contributing factor to the perception of elitism among anime fans though is that the fandom is a…
May 2nd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
According to your theory, anime fans are divided into two groups: non-elitists (vast majority), and elitists. Within the elitist category are three general categories: “quality, snobbery, and obscurity.” Is that correct?
Ok then, according to your theory, what am I? A theory is of value only if it is testable.
My favorite all time anime shows/movies:
Cowboy Bebop
Princess Mononoke
Monster
Favorite ongoing manga:
Naruto
Bleach
Favorite ongoing show:
Kaiba
Favorite recent shows:
The Guardian of the Sacred Spirit
The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi
GIT: SAC
Honey and Clover
Shows I generally avoid on principle:
Kanokon
Giant mecha shows
Memorable shows:
Evangelion
Lain
Boogiepop Phantom
So…. what am I?
July 1st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I don’t think I fall into any of these categories… I will try anything that catches my eyes, title, art, or an advertisement about an anime that made it look interesting. I do tend to watch anime with the same dub voice actors. (I am working on Japanese still and I’d love to watch the raws) Say, Steven Blum. I looked him up on Wiki and then from there checked out some anime he has done V/A for. Same with Wendee Lee. If I find out that they did a character in whatever anime, I’ll check it out, if it’s no good, according to what I want to see, I drop it.
And I also tend to stick to certain directors, like Shinichiro Wantanbe. After watching Cowboy Bebop, I looked up some of his other work, and proceeded to watch Samurai Champloo.
So what does that make me?