Cruel Angel Theses

Clearly the best part of this post is gothloli CC.

But, nah, I kid, I kid. Most interesting R2 post out there, probably. Though I did like that post of koda’s about past/present/future.

Now write a post about Macross Frontier.

Your post would actually be epic if it was deductive instead of inductive IMO.

Its been a long time since I’ve been inspired to contribute by commenting in the blogsphere, thanks to episode 25 of R2. I agree in what you’re trying to say to some extent. Whenever someone started to bash the show (for good reason sometimes) it turned into this never ending wheel of persistent and undeserving hate, it was laughable and downright annoying. I loved the parallel shots of Nunally and her family corpses. She always gets the short end of the stick.

I’m having trouble drawing parallels between The Re;quiem and The Akasha Connection. Charles’ plan truly was the past. Lelouch was certainly fighting for the future. In fact, to play the R1 card, Charles is talking to Clovis well after he dies, evidence how much he was living in the past. Lelouch was however always plotting for the future. A shame I don’t have a good example.

Their goals are the same, really, though. They both want to protect the people they love. Charles will stop the tragedies by stopping time forever, and Lelouch is going to stop them by focusing them all on him.

Replacing [lure C.C. out] with [achieve world peace by being a matyr] is quite a stretch, unless I am not following something.

Was he really masking his emotions after geassing Nunnally? I think the way that scene worked out… well, he had seen her determination, and realized how perfect she was for the role she needed to play. I think he had walked into that room ready to wear a mask, but in the end, he didn’t need to. But I guess he was wearing a mask after all. A mask he only unveiled to Nunnally just as he died.

I guess if I feel like being silly, Lelouch really does live on, though I can’t compare it to Marianne living on. Rather, Lelouch is nearly the opposite of (sorry) of a Jesus figure. Rather than dying for others sins, he dies for his own. Rather than being a symbol of love, he is a symbol of hate. That’s nothing significant at all.

I think some of your parallels are a stretch, but I am probably misunderstanding a lot.

What does Code Geass’ ending mean to me, though?

First of all, I don’t care that Lelouch is driving the cart. This is done very often in many anime I have watched. Kanon did it by having a fox (Makoto) walk through a forest in the ending. Sola did it by leaving cans of tomato juice on a picnic table. Higurashi Matsuri ends with a cg of Hanyuu sitting on a porch. It doesn’t mean anything.

Absolutely nothing. Please shut up about it. I don’t care that Lelouch is driving the cart. Please, please, please, please, please, please, please. Shut up.

It was nothing more than a plan for him to be a martyr. Did any of you see the Dark Knight? I thought of his sacrifice at the end to be quite similar to Batman’s at the end of that movie. He had to become the enemy of the city, in order to protect the cities knight in shining armor. Lelouch dies in order to protect Nunnally, the Black Knights, Suzaku, and everybody else in the world. But still, in a reverse Christ manner.

Screw literary analysis though, I can’t do this. All I know is that Nunnally crying over Lelouch’s corpse broke my heart.

Great post. But can you explain to me why C.C. cried if she knew Lelouch would still be alive? Because he would feel the pain of dying?

1400-word comment approaches. I debated whether to post it in a comment or put it on my blog; indecisive like the little shit I am, I’ll DO BOTH. Cross-posting ftw.

Suzaku holding a sword foreshadows Lelouch’s death,

Lelouch’s death by sword penetration is foreshadowed from day one by the fact that the series is by Sunrise. Don’t kid yourself.

(re: Nunnaly by Lelouch’s side) I wonder what this means.

There’s a disconnect for me, here. Nunnally wasn’t actually by Marianne’s body when she died, she was placed there after the fact. Furthermore, Marianne didn’t CODE RESURRECT, she geassed a convenient bystander. You say that she lives on through her geass and that Lelouch lives on through his code/ideologies, and while I agree with the latter part, I don’t see Lelouch ever getting a code. Charles grabs him, but can Charles pass on the code? It seems like this part of your post relies on a wobbly understanding of wobblier yet metaphysics.

Also, Lelouch most importantly lives on in the memories of those around the scene of his death (Karen, the black knights, Suzaku, Nunnally) whereas the only people who witness Marianne’s death are Anya (memory wipe) and V2 (dead, dead, dead). (Anya regains her memories, I believe, but I’d argue that this is inconsequential because she only knew Marianne as the queen—they weren’t buddies or lovers or anything.)

It’s nice to see you bring more “original” reasons to the table as for why Lelouch is still alive (the shops of the horse cart were seriously an embarrassment) but I’m not convinced.

Curiously (to me), you didn’t address a number of problems with him being alive:

1. Suzaku cried

This might be explained by “he’s never going to be able to chill with his buddy again,” but if he’s becoming Zero he can probably do whatever he wants in secret, like going out and meeting his friend (a parallel can be drawn to Jonathan leaving Saul’s castle to meet David in secret). I guess another possible explanation is that he really wants to kill Lelouch for real, and knows Lelouch will resurrect, and is pissed about that. But then the impaling wouldn’t have been so lovey-dovey.

2. C2 cried

Presumably, because the one guy who treated her with love and care (I was about to say “loved her” but then I remembered Mao and his “BUT YOU WON’T FIT IN CARRY-ON!!”) in all her memory (I think it’s safe to phrase it like that—she may have been loved at some point, but she does not remember it) is dying. There are some other possible reasons for her tears:

she can’t die because Lelouch already has a code now (from Charles?) – but as you said, this is unlikely, she wants a good life before no life.

she’s crying for all the people whom she knows love Lelouch and are about to lose him (she respects Karen et al’s love for Lelouch). This seems -almost- plausible to me, since she’s kind of a good person, but the whole prayer thing doesn’t interface well.

the last—and only decently reasonable alternate reason for her tears, as I see it—is that they are tears of happiness. She’s immortal, Lelouch is immortal, they love each other. This would be a fulfillment of Lelouch’s promise in Episode 25 of season 1 (”I’ll become the warlock to your witch”). If this is the way things are, then I’m super-happy for both parties. I’m skeptical, though, because her face as she cried was not the face of someone who’s ecstatic.

I suppose that both of the above problems (Suzaku’s tears, C2’s tears) can be answered with a simple “they didn’t know about Lelouch having received Charles’ code,” but that’s baloney. They’re far more likely to know than we are, after all. C2’s in touch with these kinds of things and can sense pretty much whenever Lelouch so much as uses his geass—there’s no way, as far as I can tell, that she could not know about it. As for Suzaku… he was Lelouch’s best friend. The only one he could confide in. He knew everything about the grand plan. And Lelouch said that this was a “punishment” for Suzaku. It wouldn’t be a punishment if Suzaku weren’t bearing the weight of killing and becoming the hero (another blog made a really good note about this, I forget which, but it was something like “Lelouch became the sacrifice Suzaku always wanted to be”).

3. If Lelouch received a code from Charles, it’s just as likely that Lelouch passed that code onto Suzaku.

Another thing with Suzaku becoming Zero—Lelouch mentions “forever” in his sentence for Suzaku. This can be literal or figurative. Figurative is “you will live out your life under the curse of my geass.” Literal is “you are immortal forever.” We know that his “live” geass defies reality as we know it. Maybe it’ll make Suzaku live, literally, forever?

But it can’t be that, because Suzaku could just have Jeremiah ungeass him if he wants.

BUT there’s still the possibility that it could have been literal… because Lelouch could have passed Charles’ code onto Suzaku! It’s just as likely as Charles giving V2’s to Lelouch. One might even argue that it’s more likely, because while you’re drawing a lot of implications out of midair for that Episode 21 scene, Lelouch actually says something about Suzaku living forever.

Of course, if Lelouch is passing a code onto Suzaku, he’s not going to be reborn.

4. Is rebirth via code at-will?

We see C2 bite the bullet a few times, and she always comes back. This is the immortality granted by the code. She’s always back, fully regenerated, within minutes of dying. Consider this: Lelouch is killed by Suzaku. The crowd goes wild. The crowd rushes the hostages. The crowd surrounds Lelouch’s corpse. He’s not going to just stand up and walk away. Also, people would see to his burial. He would need Zero-esque smoke and mirrors to up and vanish (pink smoke bombs, Knightmares busting out of the pavement, etc.). I think it’s safe to assume that he’s there, dead, corpse-like.

Does he resurrect later? Can he choose when or when not to?

I personally don’t think that’s how the code immortality works. This belief of mine is based on the fact that not once in the series did someone in possession of a code time-delay their resurrection. If there’s a more reliable source that shows otherwise—like, an interview with the creators that goes along the lines of “lol we don’t define our metaphysics well for a REASON, didn’t you know? teehee~”—I will kneel before the irrefutable proof. And by irrefutable, I mean that Problems 1-3 will still be problems.

That’s it for my major qualms with him being alive, I think. One more little note, since you so thoroughly enjoyed saying “x in scene a is like y in scene b, get it? get it?” in this post: Suzaku, who stands at the top of the ramp down which Lelouch’s corpse falls, takes Lelouch’s place, “becomes” him in a sense by becoming Zero. Lelouch, who stands at the top of the stairs down which Marianne’s corpse falls, takes nothing from Marianne but her hair, eyes, and aptitude for maniacal laughter.

I’d make a witty tl;dr note, but then you’d think I was imitating you.

P.S. my question for you in IM that I didn’t get to ask was something like, “you _do_ realize that I haven’t even said anything critical about your post, right?” You kept slamming my negative reaction to your post before I even had one. And I still don’t have one… your post is well-thought out and heavy on the “going to the text” technique which is key to good discourse. I applaud it. But applause is different from agreement. I think you base too much on the idea that Charles gave a code to Lelouch… which, as I noted, is just as likely as Lelouch then passing it on to Suzaku. Or to Nunnally, even.

First of all, I don’t care that Lelouch is driving the cart. This is done very often in many anime I have watched. Kanon did it by having a fox (Makoto) walk through a forest in the ending. Sola did it by leaving cans of tomato juice on a picnic table. Higurashi Matsuri ends with a cg of Hanyuu sitting on a porch. It doesn’t mean anything.

This previous comment was to good not to quote. Amen. It’s the anime thing, you know? Tons of shows do it, and it never means anything.

Wait, I thought this whole scenario was pretty obvious. How could one not get it when it was practically explained to the audience in the dialogue behind Lelouch and Suzaku in episode 25. Then again like you said a lot of people jumped on that trainwreck bandwagon to try and be cool and stopped thinking about anything they were watching, even the stuff that requires 30 seconds of cognitive processing. The fact that most blog posts you saw could have easily been about any episode and felt copy/pasted from each other kind of attests to this and makes me wonder if they actually watched the episodes or just stole some pictures and posted whatever meme was currently circulating at the time to go along with them.

The thing is that it wasn’t Code Geass itself that “made no sense”, it was people’s insistance that it made no sense and that thinking about anything that happened in the series was somehow wrong bordering on criminal that made it make no sense to those individuals and their associates. It really was kind of sad to watch people utterly destroy the series for themselves and others by spreading rumours, memes and just plain old hate. Yep…wasted a lot of time reading blogs this summer.

The only part of this I’ll be honest that I don’t think was intended was Charles possibly giving Lelouch his code when he strangled him. I think it’s contestable and that it being part of the Zero Requiem is open to interpretation and far less clear cut then the rest of the plan, but it does seem to work with the following scenarios.

If Lelouch isn’t dead he should be. I think he’s dead because it is logical for the story. What would even be the point of keeping him alive? He’d be no different than those he opposed. All along, Lelouch has always been different than his opponents because he stuck with what he believed in and took the hit to help others.

This highlights why it is annoying that Sunrise never let dead characters stay dead. There is no real reason to believe that Lelouch is alive. I was reading the stretched /a/ evidence, and it is just absurd. LL == RR? Rerouch? Ruh Roh Rabby!

Well written and analyzed…I have my doubt on how the series was going to end but they did wrap it up very nicely…
It is ashame there aren’t more anime series that is complex characters or story as CG…(I would consider the first Gundam series UC0079 is the first of its kind)
To me things started falling into place when Schnizer (?) mentioned about the mask and Kallen / Lelouchon shared their kiss.
Enough of what I wrote time for you to write one for Macross F :D

I had been considering making a jab at the innumerable people who keep calling Geass a trainwreck and assuming it as a ‘definition’ rather than something that needed to be explained, but alas with sleep deprivation it slipped my mind. I was quite chafed at it as well though, to be honest.

Certainly an interesting concept you have here for pro-life Lulu. I still feel that Lulu was atoning for his actions against the world, shakily highlighted by C.C.’s line in 25: Compensation for use of Geass on others. And, if we take this premise of atonement, then it wouldn’t make any sense for Lulu to still be alive.

Oh and, fourth to last paragraph, ‘world piece’. Just thought you might want to know.

I still don’t think that we can really determine whether he’s alive or not without seeing the aftermath of his death scene. All of the other immortals healed within a short time of being harmed; how would they be able to cover this up in front of billions of people?

Trainwreck is trainwreck. I don’t mean that the plot makes no sense, but the presentation doesn’t. There is so many plot points, so many branch characters and so many guns on the wall that is unused, and so many discontinuity and jumps that violates narrative logic. It is like CGR2 is designed to intentionally deceive the viewer at many points as it misuses traditional structures of plot. The result is a pace that feels abnormal and strange.

Some might have hoped that all the loose ends get tied up in 20 minutes so those abnormal parts makes some sense, but it didn’t happen. (and probably couldn’t given how much is there) As an standalone ending it is fine, but it is burdened by everything before it.

If we take the ending and work backwards retroactively and edit the show, there is so much stuff that could be cut without effecting anything. What happened is “filler that pretended to be important” happened almost everywhere and they crammed the ending in the last few episodes with liberal use of time skips.

If CG ever gets a remake like Gundam movies, it might be made into something great. (the material is there) As it stands how, it is disorganized.

—————————
Is lulu dead? That is a meaningless question since the proper answer is that it is clearly undecidable. Call it Schrodinger’s lulu for all you want.

Even ‘truly’ dead people can “revive” in ret-con edits in the DVD release (To make the impossible possible, I’m looking at you) and when the ending is left open, it is damned open until they’ve decided on a sequel or something to cash in on the undetermined state. Hell, he can be both dead and alive for different parallel universe stories.

If the endless Evangelion ending debates is any indication, even the DIRECTOR may have no real idea what is going on (Damn you Hidaki Anno) in the ending. (or why applying analysis to anime most likely won’t work since elements can often be illogical….)

I’m also reminded of the undecided status of Amuro and Char’s supposed death in CCA. It appears to be left there for the “In case of emergency, bring them from Nyuutype heaven” option.

@Shin_Getter: Okay………..three things. First, that “Trainwreck is Trainwreck” is a perfect example of that circular logic (bordering on meme) Owen mentioned that is now allowed to go totally unchecked on the internet for some reason. You can’t do that in an argument and expect to be taken at all seriously dude. Second, have you considered that the reason it doesn’t follow traditional structures of plot is because it doesn’t want to. That’s not automatically a bad thing that the show isn’t a pile of cliched story development. And what exactly do you mean by traditional plot structures anyway? Give an example of what a traditional plot structure should be? Anyway, third and last, if you find the pace to be abnormal and strange then maybe try to adapt.

I seriously didn’t find the pacing to be a major issue or problematic at all like everybody else on the internet seems to (except during one portion of episode 20) and I don’t know why this and the “writing” became such a matter of contention. I’m trying to think of any other series where the writing and the pacing were talked about this much or even brought up period but can’t think of any. I’ve pretty much determined that it’s just another part of that bandwagon effect that must have among other things deemed it cool to talk about the writing and pacing. It’s also kind of amusing to watch though because then you get to see people misapply terms like “plot holes”, “Climax” and “epic” as well as just plain making up their own terms as well that have no clear definition.

By the way, the more I think about it, the more I like the hamster in a ball analogy.

I found the show fun, didnt find it a trainwreck but yeah had several issues with it.

@Kaoshin(post8): Bashing everyone who “jumps on the trainwreck wagon” because we criticize this series is worse. I am not jumping to any wagon, you bash viewers but actually, there are plenty of small things that should jump out to any viewer that is actually paying attention. There are tastes of course, but this things are real, they are not product of my imagination.

1) Plot Gaps. What i mean with this are elements hinted as relevant then never touched upon again or insufficient explanation given to cover the questions asked. Example: Suzaku relationship with geass touched several times during s1 (fav was euphie episode where Suzaku is heading to her before she goes crazy, but oh behold, CC senses something, they touch, he goes KO and CC mentions something like “could he be…”, not to mention several other parts where the relationship is very relevant). This is no little hint, this is something that appeared to be very relevant (could have prevented Euphie’s killing spree and death). Another example is what the hell is the damn code, where does it come from again? who left those mark locations/code ruins? etc. I feel this was not developped well enough.

2) Several other small things that where hinted several times and then rushed with a 1 minute of monologue. Not as relevant as plot gaps but still bother. You dont touch into something several times in the series if you are not going to explain it well enough. Examples:
Kallen’s brother.
Rakshata & Lloyd relationship (prison comment on last episode by Cecil).
Ragnarok: eva all over again? well we assume that since all we got was a 1 episode crappy (my qualifier) monologue to explain all the Charles, Marianne, etc plot hooks that drived perhaps half the series).

3) This small issues, strike them as things which are generally considered bad writing. Bad time(page) count priorities. Its not as bad as lets say 90% filler with 10% plot as most of the other anime out there, but still, air time was sacrificed on irrelevant things. Or perhaps nothing was irrelevant? Then they had a bigger bite than they could chew in their given episode count and they chose wrongly on what to scrap. If they didnt have time to develop Kallen, Suzaku, etc (Gino if thats your thing) then dont bring in Rollo.

4) Stretching the plausability of something. When something very very unprobable happens. Example: death of Gilford, half the suit was consumed by Fleia with his escape pod facing the big bad ball. Yeah they never showed his corpse, but in my book he had the same chance to survive as someone taking a bullet in the head, possible yes though extremely unlikely.

5) Excessive using of red herrings is also very commonly referred as bad writing, just like excesive use of deus ex machina, etc. How do we quantify the word “excesive”? hard, it is indeed subjective, however one can argue that almost each episode had at least 1 twist where you where previously hinted something else. Further analysis escapes a mere blog comment, but there are tons of valid reasons. Though i understand you saying “come on, list them all” i am just putting some examples cause i dont care that much, but you should be humble enough to assume that if huge lot of old and new anime viewers criticize this show, maybe there might be valid reasons and you might be the one wrong or perhaps you dont hold the absolute truth. So hold your hand a bit more and think before throwing rocks at everybody else because your first 2 paragraphs (of3) in post 8 where bashing.

To summarize:

Of course different people, different tastes and different things they like paying attention to. But all this little things add up when you are watching while actually paying attention. Loldramacd, picture dvd bonus content, etc dont count.

I am probably forgetting a ton of issues, after all i am making this post on the fly without rereading it or giving it much thought at 5am. Plus it would probably take a blog post itself to point all this things out correctly but i dont care that much and probably wont even land on this webpage again.

Again i had fun because i dont require my anime to be perfect to enjoy it. However i dont delude myself and pretend the things i found wrong or bad didnt happen.

Btw, at first i thought he Lelouch lived, then after some thinking and rewatching i am more inclined to think Lelouch lived. Though as said before, he is either alive or dead as they want him to be.

I personally enjoyed Geass all the way immensely. I find your analysis a bit far-fetched, you need to check your sources. But do remember that according to Raoult’s Law, this is not ideal.

@Abrojo:

1. I always interpreted Suzaku’s relationship with the Geass as referring to the Live Geass that curses him to be all but unable to die by his own will.

2. I thought Karen’s brother was dead. I also thought that Llloyd and Cecil were just clearly friendly with each other as coworkers. There might have been a love story there, but there might not have been. Though I suppose they could have given the Ragnarok plan explanation a little bit more time, I think it had been running throughout the whole series at that point and that the explanation and closing off of the storyline was enough. Their really wasn’t much more I think they had to explain about it that they didn’t.

3. Opinion, so I’m not really going to challenge any of this.

4. That’s fair enough, but the chance being there is probably enough for him to be given an escape. I don’t so much question how he survived so much as why.

5. Well to me if 99% of the people who watched this were critical but never provided any reasons or example for their criticisms and 1% praised it and provided examples and reasons for why I would lean more towards the 1% minority in terms of credibility and vice versa if if were the opposite. Personally I’m more for moderate criticism. Give a little praise here for the good parts, give a little criticism there for the bad parts, but never try to generalize the whole show as wholly good or wholly bad. IMO both sides, the ones that are calling this is the best anime ever, and those that only seem capable of spamming memes and the same old tired pseudo-criticisms about it are deceiving themselves.

The real problem I think is that it’s hard to tell who is serious about what they are saying about the show and who is just joining in for the memes and the sheer fact that it’s popular, yet have really have nothing to add to the discussion. The zero sum game feel I got from most comments and blog articles on the series that seemed to break the whole show down to 2 whole possible POV’s on the show, those being it’s “teh bestzor anime” or “teh shit” and that either one or other absolutely had to be the case doesn’t seem to help either.

I don’t know, but like Owen I felt the discussion on this series was really dumbed down from what it could have been. Just because some people thought the show didn’t live up to the standards of the first season didn’t mean they had to stop even trying to analyze it at all and to try and discourage other people from doing so as well, which again I totally agree with Owen is what happened. Thought that’s just my opinion.

The beauty of the right to free speech is that it gives everybody the right to speak their own mind, but it also gives a person the right to hold another persons point of view in contempt and to disagree with it as long as the reasons and actions taken in doing so aren’t explicitly harmful or hateful towards that other person. I think where I differ from a lot of other bloggers and anime fans is that while most just stop at the right to criticize a show and voice their opinion on it, I take it a step further and often will criticize commentary from anime fans as well that I think falls short on what it seeks to prove since I actually see all aspects of the anime community from the producers that make the show to the fans that watch them as fair game. I don’t think that’s unfair, but I guess some others do.

Though at the end I do have some criticisms of the show:

-Gino’s character wasn’t handled very well at all for somebody Taniguchi said was going to be a major player
-The Knight of Rounds mostly came across as obstacles and foils for Lelouch, Suzaku and Karen to overcome.
-Episodes 5 and 12 could have been removed from the show other then a few key plot relevant scenes and it would not have made a difference.
-Episode 20 was needlessly confusing at times.
-Knightmare Frame battles become a little tedious and bland for the middle portion of the series.
-Lelouch was made to overuse the terrain effect battle tactic way to much in R2.
-Sayoko’s character seemed more like an Otaku pleaser then a real legitimate character and was one of the few aspects of the series that I actually had a hard time taking seriously.
-Same goes for Tamaki who was a rather unnecessary comic relief.
-Pizza Hut promotion got invasive at times and I just don’t like product placement period.

Overall these are minor faults for me though and I’m not really too sore about them. No show is perfect or without it’s flaws, but I still won’t join the group that says the show was a total trainwreck, doesn’t make any sense at all, is poorly paced and 100% poorly written because I just don’t see it and didn’t have a hard time following the story, the characters actions and allegiances or the fast paced nature of it all.

I’m very much sure that Lelouch is alive, and I even believe that Charles passed on his code, but for a post that goes on to insinuate that the majority of us in this fandom are complete and utter idiots, you make at least two mistakes:

1) There is no concrete evidence in that scene that Charles really did pass the code. He might have just tried to choke Lelouch out of spite. It is therefore amusing that you skim over this point in your analysis and take it for granted.

2) Don’t use the expression “begs the question” when you don’t know what it means. Google or wiki it.

As for the rest, I more or less agree.

The hamster perspective of things really makes me laugh, seeing how I have a shirt that says “You’re wheels spinning but your hamster ain’t moving.” it’s just self-gratifying talk – making everything anyone posts/blogs about ironic because in the end one or the other will bias-ly think themselves the more passionate fan, right?

Anyway, there are a number of theories I find myself wanting to believe, but never can because there are obvious flaws. No matter how “in plain sight” things are throughout this anime, the writers/producers still aren’t giving ME enough ground evidence to plant my feet on and say “Ah that was nice” towards any ending theoretically thought up or proven true by someone who has connected enough oddly placed dots. However before I continue “rambling” I have to admit that my ability to foresee plots, and and what not in any anime – much less anything I read is poor. This is solemnly because I am just a viewer or reader. I’m not the creator/writer I can’t make anything I think up law or true for any given universe that these fictional characters live in, nor do I claim to have everything about something perfectly thought out and easily explained even after I’ve finished with it, because somewhere else someone is going to have a different view on it all.

I’m not trying to make a discouraging point, but rather a realistic and relative one when it comes to human nature for just wanting someone to agree with yourself. I don’t hate this series, in fact it’s pretty hard for me to hate anything I dare to read/watch because I hate to leave things unfinished, and in the end come to accept what it is no matter how arguably poor it is. The R2 ending given to the viewers no matter how differently perceived was indeed the one the writers/creators wanted to give, and unless they want us to see it in the light they better start tossing out some data books, or something.

However Owen;s theory of how Lelouch received his code is quite worth looking into since we don’t know what is to happen to those who are given/take a code. In my honest opinion I want to believe that when receiving a code the moment after you’re to be influenced by the predecessor’s own wish. Though my idea is quite fresh in my head, and very fragile I’ll be placing some money on it since after reading Owen’s post or to be exact a number of bits here and there got me thinking.

If after C.C. received her code and she and the nun died simultaneously C.C. realized she didn’t want her life to end without truly being loved – oppose to her newly spoiled ways from the effect of Geass that caused her to be bored with all the current love she’d been given – then Lelouch not dying when Charles passed on his code to him would mean he’d realized something else for himself – that simply because you rid humans of the ability to move forward, does not mean they’ve found peace amongst themselves. Thus “a better tomorrow” must always be a possibility, because it is our natural ability to learn adapt, and then forget – maybe Lelouch’s “sacrifice” was meant to show humans how easily they can forget “Hatred, Greed, and Power” and move on to better ways. In turn keeping them from pursuing a future dominated by fear & hate.

Well that’s what I call “putting my two sense in” so I’ll just close (for now) with saying:

I think it’s not wrong to eliminate your worst qualities, but to eliminate what makes you human – competitiveness & evolution, it’s energizing/fueling when you have a desire to win, but stressful to end up having to carry out hating someone because you lost. Not to mention you’ve already put yourself at a disadvantage when you weighed yourself down with greed for the spoils of a victor, and the right/power to gloat at the end, while everyone else is just happy with being able to participate with friends in something hopefully fun for them all.

nice post, especially about the whole cool/meme mindless spam. your right perhaps I was not thinking and wanted some1 else to think.

Please can you make a clear summary of what you said, it would help.

Owen: You make a good point and it illustrates the catch-22 problem with people saying “trainwreck is trainwreck.” And that’s probably why it’s rampant. However if you only put forth a bunch of points like you did, the thread that connects them tells me more about how you think and how you interpret them subjectively than what really happens and what is an intentional point to the story/plot people are arguing about at the end. Or as I see it, why you think it’s “obvious” or whatever. But, anyone can take two or three or ten scenes in Code Geass and make some points that may or may not be intentional as a plot point–even if it’s outright outrageous and nonsensical (eg. pretty much anything regarding Orange), and some of your supporting examples can be taken multiple ways.

For example, you might want to try to argue things like (to argue that Lulu is alive)
1. from thematic parallelism
2. from plot devices
3. from artistic symmetry

Because if you don’t give us the framework to begin with, it seems like you’re grasping at straws just like everyone else.

Plus you didn’t really address why people think it’s a train wreck besides “oh they’re not thinking.” I assure you it’s much more than that.

You’re just jealous about the C2 x Cheese-kun ending, and this post is just an excuse to use a rocket charles screenshot.

I like how you brought up the parallel in the two plots but… you still confuse me. I read up what you said. You mentioned near the end that Lelouch’s will lives on in more than his code (but including his code nonetheless it seems) but then in your tl;dr you said he had died.

Some parts of your post is also confusing due to a certain degree of lacking-ness because you seem to type in this “because it’s so obvious” manner that I believe you miss stamping down what you actually conclude. Seriously for most part of this article you sound pro-life but I know your conclusion wasn’t because you downplayed that idea before you even began your disection.

And please. What the hell do people have against Ruruji de Ramperouji? Linguistic Xenophobia?

tjhan > lolol Raoult’s Law xD;

This is meaningless.

wow dude, this explanation is way bigger, and way more complicated/confusing than the one they had on the Otakufan site. I got alittle lost on the replacing words on their dialogue during the time Lelouch, Suzaku, C.C, the Emperor, and Lelouch’s mom [Marinanne or something], it didn’t seem as “correct” to me.

And for the Suzaku receiving Lelouch’s Code/Geass part, I don’t think Suzaku can get the Code yet since I thought you have to first obtain a fully developed Geass user before receiving the Immortal Code. So I THINK, that Lelouch only kept the Code [kinda like how V.V. kept the code while giving the Emperor a Geass power], and gave the Geass power to Suzaku (also a feeling I suddenly felt when Suzaku had tears flowing out of his eyes, and lelouch is saying how he [Suzaku] is going to have to hide before Zero’s mask forever.

i think euphie is alive
in the wedding picture in the resturant
tamaki is in the front on one knee
next to him
closer to cornielia is someone with big pink hair

Owen, good job quoting a page which essentially supports what I said and argues that this “new meaning” is better left unused. Did you care to read what you quoted, yourself? ;) Hint: check the very bottom of the page.

Being a native speaker unfortunately does not make you an authority on the language – there are many native English speakers whose command of the English language is less than adequate. Well, even journalists tend to make the mistake in question (I’ve seen it pop up on BBC on at least one occasion), so it’s not surprising that you would. You can also argue that I am being overly prescriptivist – I can’t dispute that.

You included a screenshot of Charles grabbing Lelouch with the hand he has his Code on. Then you claim that as proof that he passed on the Code. Quite the non sequitur, don’t you think? Oh, I want it to be true, don’t mistake me. But that’s just wishful thinking, not an actual proof of anything.

i have been saying this all over the net
this is what the people at sunrise wanted
for us to discuss and come to our own conclusions
can someone see what i was talking about in the picture

I blame the above trackback on scrapers. IT IS NOT I WHO SPAMS!

To be fair, Geass only has itself to blame for being called a trainwreck. There’s only so many times a show can make use of bizarre plot twists, nonsensical character developments (I hesitate to even use the word “development” when so often it was more like character regression), and hilariously stupid scenarios before the viewer simply throws up their hands and stops trying to find anything intelligent to say about the show.

The way the story was presented felt fractured, like it was moving from plot twist to plot twist with no real idea where it was going. That’s why people started joking that Sunrise was just making it up as they went. For instance, looking back, I don’t know what the hell the point of the entire Chinese Federation or the inclusion of a dying Li Xingke really was. Plus when you’ve got funny but stupid stuff going on 24/7 (cheese-kun, the asshat episode, Nina humping a table, Charles turning into a bottle rocket, and so on) it’s great entertainment but it makes it hard to take the serious stuff seriously.

I guess all I’m saying is that while I never personally took part, I think you’ve come down harder on bloggers than they deserve. As for whether or not Lelouch lives, the parallels you drew between Zero Requiem and the situation with Lelouch’s parents have given me something to think about. Frankly, though, I hope he’s dead because if he’s hiding in the hay it really takes away a lot of the significance of his sacrifice. Leaving Suzaku to bear the burden while he galavants around the countryside with C.C. just doesn’t quite sit right with me.

Did anyone not NOTICE the very last scene of the damn “Pink Paper Crane”…

Hello people Nunnally taught it to Lelouch in Season ONE.

=D

Jesus will come again!

C.C.: I applaud you for being able to put a mask on against Nunnally the entire way.

I thought she was talking about Lelouch’s conversation with Nunally on the big screen?

Also somewhere in the middle of the series it is stated that “when everybody dies, they go to the world of C.” I guess that may also explain C.C.’ talking to Lelouch on top of a cart full of hay. I think it’s a much better explanation.

If Lelouch were to be alive this series would’ve been a huge joke, a tragic ending fits it perfectly.

Well, I’m calling this series a bad (not a trainwreck) because of gaping plot holes (What happened to the chinese man being at the brink of death? He’s been getting better all the time), and people constantly not dying when they appear to. While there may be something deep and well thought out behind this show, it wasnt really brought out all that well. I don’t know who to blame, the director or the one who wrote the story, but something went wrong anyway.

Don’t get me wrong, when I say bad I mean it never got me “in to it”, I just watched it through. At least it was entertaining and kept me watching until the end. A lot of series fail at that, nowadays. But in any case, I think you’re giving it too much credit. Maybe he just died.

HURR DURR GEASS IS DEEP DERP

HI,

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting up this great post. For me it was clear that Lelouch istn’t dead and won’t do so at the end. I told so many people those fine evidence why that couldn’t be possible since Lelouch has shown us in R1 that he carefully plans everything before he takes action. So pieces of evidence are quite hard to find but they are there. Most people didn’t care to view closely so they won’t miss even the smallest bit of information. Finally when the last episode aired I knew I was right with my thougts all along and you proved me with this summed up blog. And now I’m going back to laugh at all those idiots in our irc channel ridiculing me for cosplaying Zero and saying I’m dead since I’m not dead as Zero nor as Lelouch *gg*

@Owen: epic post. Good work.

@all the commenters: epic comments. Likewise.

Skimming posts and comment threads such as this I really feel that I’ve missed out on a great community thing; which makes me glad I was able to follow Frontier along with everyone else really. I’m still on the first season of Geass so wish I had more to say about this post than I have.

The impression I’m getting is that Lelouch is supposed to be dead by the end, which for me is one hell of a spoiler. Even so, I think it’s a good way to go for a character who is supposed to be a hero – self sacrifice and all that. Of course, I never bought into the idea that R2 was a complete trainwreck; the promise of cool mecha, gothic lolitas eating pizza and zillions of plot contrivances can’t be all bad, right?

Since Frontier’s ending leaves a twenty-five minute gap in my Sunday mornings, it looks like there’s an opening for catching up on another slab of wonderfully absurd sci-fi melodorama…

This show was pointless. DEEP ANIME IS DEEP? Yeah right it’s entertainment. Also long live sat-cakes <3!

I really like to believe this, but this does not convince me :,( I mean sure its does sound convincing but this is only put together by you guys, you dont have any offical connection towards Sunrise, so you cant prove that all you wrote is the truth.

Sure this is quite enough info to get a person to feel better, but what I want is the truth, I wont believe it, until I hear it from a staff member who worked on Code Geass.

I still have no idea what the hell people are referring to when they say “plot holes”, because I just don’t see any at all. I’m dead serious, I really don’t. I think people are just filing un(der)explained or strange events/character behaviour under this heading or something and that’s what they mean to say because that’s the only way the whole “plot holes” thing people go on about makes sense.

O.o u just won a fan ur an awesome blogger i admire u

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXGtXX0rNJQ

Check this video that someone made, I think it’s pretty good :P

I share your sentiments on memetic demagoguery.

Unfortunately, this lengthy diatribe of yours has yet to prove a thing.

I suggest you start by finding a shred of evidence that isn’t marred by such pretentious assumptions.

okay, here’s the thing.
you have too much time. spend it on watching other series rather than making assumptions while critizing/degrading/disrespecting other people.

however, i do applaud you for the awesome screenshots.

Lelouch should be dead. This show is not the best example of clean plot-management, but I do see that it attempts at symmetry. This is why I agree with this post.

I really started liking code geass after reading Owen’s post on it being the pinaccle of mecha anime. I had seen the whole of R1 at this point, and his post made me re-watch it and I got into it more than I already have. Now I’ve put up my own blog and Owen I hope you drop by some time.

Kaioshin fightning it out in comments everywhere gives me the image of Orange in the desert, continuing to fight. No need to justify the series at this point. Let’s all re-visit it in a year or so.

yeah, I agree, why would CC cry and pray if she knows that Lelouch will get revived and do you even got proof that the code was passed on to Lelouch by Charles. Shouldn’t you look for the facts that are needed to pass on the code to someone else

well basically… I commend Sunrise, a truly evil genius, for creating war between those who believe Lelouch is alive and those who thinks he is dead

I wasn’t going to watch R2 at first, but DAMN, you people just can’t stop talking about it, so, now, I’m forced to watch it.

By the way, welcome back Owen. And as always, I’m just a little bit late. Heh.

I totally agree with lolikitsune’s comment. I honestly believe that CC cried because she thinks that Lelouch’s life may soon reach an end. In the anime, when Lelouch asked CC why she didn’t know that Nunnally was still alive, she stated that she isn’t a god. She only knows what’s happening to those who have the geass. In ths case, Lelouch did have the geass and it’s impossible for her not to know whether Lelouch was able to obtain Charles’s code or not. Furthermore, I don’t get why people assume that Charles might have transferred his code to Lelouch. I think that mere physical contact is not enough to transfer one’s code into another person. And don’t you think that immortality might be a cycle. I honestly think that in order for Lelouch to become an immortal being, CC must first die since she was originally the one who gave him the geass. As for the wagon driver thing, yeah that’s totally BS. It could just be another old geezer driving the wagon for all I care.

The ending was definitely tragic and I do think that Lelouch died. His actions would not have been a form of retribution or atonement for his sins if he continues to live on.

doo dee dum

These comments span the pH meter that is theory making with Code Geass.

Nice job trying to be a seven.

This anime did have a bad habit of bringing back dead characters (Cornelia, Mao, etc.), the only one that only had a logical comeback honestly was Marianne (and was necessary).

The only thing that could possibly connects Ragnarok Junction and Zero Requiem is Code, so therefore Charles probably did pass it to Lelouch.

Also, if you’re questioning the passing, how did V.V pass his Code to Charles? Shit like this could be translated and explained endlessly.

People have been resisting the obvious notion that the title “R2″ is relevant to the series. If R2 does not equal L2, what does it mean?

That is all.

I think no one of us will exactly know the truth of what happened to Lulu. Unless the mangaka or whoever in the production team blurts out the real deal!

It just depends on our own opinions, beliefs and perspectives on how we watched the anime’. But I don’t think this anime’ is a trainwreck just like others have said. If we are over analyzing and critically thinking the endless possiblities of the plot, how can one say that this show was a total disaster? It bugs us and stays in our thoughts. I therefore conclude that this anime’ had far exceeded normal standards.

This post was an interesting one and had opened my eyes into a lot of things. THere were little details that I haven’t noticed before that when I’ve read it all I could say was, “Oh… that was nice to know. I didn’t know that.”

Comparisons and logical explanations were greatly appreciated.
Although I think Charles’ geass wasn’t transferred to Lelouch at all.
But somehow, I believe deep in my heart that he is alive.

What the hell, this ending sucked….anyway i knew there would keep on being deaths and even more deaths and tragedy in the final one.
I was just hesitating, will everyone die or some selected ones for the pleasure of killing them……
Man whats this called Guess….call it tragedyuess man sounds better for the whole story with nothing more than useless tragedy in this manga
Come on make the following more action wise and less tradgic, would appreciate not seeing all characters die in a horror movie type ending, just bloody and non-action wise……. Boooooooo
Go make stuff like horor movies you’ll succeed there…. make it bloody and painfully emotional..
Man i want to see some good things in this manga if ever they plan on making a next one…………..

i totally do not understand,wat all dis have to do wit lelouch dead,is dis the proof dat he is alive?LOL!!u explain it in a long way and non-understand

Thank you for writing this. I am quite glad that there is someone else intelligent enough to understand how amazing the ending of Code Geass really is. I appreciate all the effort you put forth into this. As to your theory of Lelouch becoming immortal, well, it’s a good theory and it definitely makes the very last scene make sense. Though I’d very much would like to know what the creators intended with the ending.

March 19, 2009.

You’d think the page would’ve been updated by now to show his ‘dead’ status.

http://www.geass.jp/correlative.html

So. If this is the final ‘death toll’ officially, what do you think it means?

Lelouch lives.

Though its nice to see someone else seeing a sort of Christ-imagery in Lelouch.

This is a good post, though I feel like you derailed from your analysis to bash large groups of people a little to often.

Your argument is compelling and I don’t disagree. Although I’m a little (or a lot) late finding this post I still found it a compelling argument.

To respond to a few comments:

I believe CC’s crying could be her grief at Lelouch’s death, however, it could also very well be her grief at Lulu becoming an immortal. She didn’t have the best canonization (I’m using this word to describe her becoming immortal instead of its intended sainthood or whatever). For most of the series she seemed to be giving the message that she found immortality painful as she spent most of it alone. She could be sad because Lelouch is giving up his own life/sister/friends to be with her. He can’t go back to a normal life if what this blog post postulates is correct.

I feel like I have more to say, but overall I was just really impressed by the analysis. You saw more connections than I did. The writing wasn’t always brilliant, but it certainly had its brilliant moments. I love this show (although it’s not the best thing I’ve ever seen).